Differences

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--- techtalk:ih:engctl03 [2017/03/31 01:21]
hippysmack [Lollipops]
+++ techtalk:ih:engctl03 [2023/12/31 18:22]
hippysmack [Sub-Documents]
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 ====== IH: Engine Control ======
+====== Kick Starter ======
-\\
+===== Sub-Documents =====
+* . . . [[techtalk:ih:engctl03a|1968 Kicker Cover Roll Pin Repair]] \\
+* . . . [[techtalk:ih:engctl03b|1977-1978 Kicker Cover Damage Repair]]
-====== Baffles, Torque Cones and Lollipops ======
+  * Starting July 1, 1973, there was a new design with a kick starter ratchet gear, bushing and spacer. The new 'pressed in' bushing has a Teflon coated lead bearing surface on a steel ball shell. The gear has a groove for the starter gear spring and the spacer length (and diameter) were increased to fit the new gear. ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))
-===== Lollipops =====
+  * The new ratchet gear assembly w / Teflon bushing was recommended for part replacement on all models built previous to July 1, 1973. However, these parts will not interchange with the old part numbers individually so the full replacement kit is recommended as an assembly. ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))
+^Starter Gear Ratchet Kits ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974)) ((1954-1976 HD Sportster Parts Catalog pg 41))||
+| 33400-74 - 1970 and Earlier|Starter Ratchet Gear w/ Teflon bushing (33432-73) and Clutch Sprocket Spacer (37754-74) \\ Also includes a replacement ratchet (33379-57) with a larger I.D. for the new larger gear bushing and 12 rivets, 5/32"x13/16"x9/32" Dia. (8215)|
+|33460-74 - 1971 & later|Starter Ratchet Gear Assy. w / Teflon bushing (33432-73) and Clutch Sprocket Spacer (37754-74)|
-  *  A "Lollipop" is a cheap simple way of achieving back pressure on the pipes and creating anti-reversion.
+^Starter Ratchet Gear and Bushing||||
-  * The length of the headers determines at what RPM range the reversion (loss in torque happens). The shorter the pipe, the higher up in the RPM range it is. This is harmonics. There are two parts to the harmonics... the reversion wave reducing power, and the scavenging wave increasing power (higher RPM). The less restrictive the baffle is, the greater these effects. Drag pipes, being the least restrictive baffle (no baffle). ((Weo from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle&page=3))
+|1957 - Early 1973|XL/XLH/XLCH|Starter Ratchet Gear Assy. w / bronze bushing ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|33432-57|
-  * The lollipops reduce flow, thereby breaking up the harmonics. This reduces the waves... both the lower RPM reversion loss, and the higher RPM scavenging boot. Since a lot of people with drags don't ride at WOT 24/7 (unless its actually a drag bike), its often worthwhile to reduce the lower RPM torque dip, even though there's a slight decrease in top end. ((Weo from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle&page=3))
+|1957 - Early 1973|XL/XLH/XLCH|Starter Ratchet Gear (bronze) Bushing (only) ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|33442-57|
-  * This is why long drag pipes used to be popular with actual riders on the street. If the pipe is long enough, the reversion range is lower than general riding RPM. Of course, there's a little more restriction overall on the longer pipes too. ((Weo from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle&page=3))
+|Late 1973 and later|XLCH|Starter Ratchet Gear Assy. w / Teflon coated steel bushing ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|33432-73|
-  * Lollipops were originally used on Ironheads with drag pipes and shorties although they will work on any model with straight pipes and no baffles. They will also work in addition of torque cones. You can vary the angle and feel performance changes ((IronMick from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2010398)) although generally 30-45 degrees seems to be the sweet spot.
+|Late 1973 and later|XLCH|Starter Ratchet Gear (Teflon coated steel) Bushing (only) ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|33442-73|
+^Clutch Sprocket Spacer|||Length|Outside Diameter|
+|  |  |37755-57 ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|1.047"|1.3585"|
+|  |  |37756-57 ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|1.025"|1.3585"|
+|  |  |37755-71 ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|1.143"|1.3585"|
+|  |  |37756-71 ((HD Service Bulletin #618C as updated December 17, 1974))|1.121"|1.3585"|
+|1957-1970|XL/XLH/XLCH|37754-74 ((1954-1976 HD Sportster Parts Catalog pg 41))|1.047"|1.3715"|
+|1967 and later|XLH|37753-76 ((1954-1976 HD Sportster Parts Catalog pg 41))|  |  |
+|1971 and later|XLCH|37755-73 ((1954-1976 HD Sportster Parts Catalog pg 41))|1.153"|1.3715"|
-===== Results =====
-The results of using lollipops are concurrent with each other for the most part:
-  * They don't have as much impact on sound as they do on torque although the sound does change just a little, you can tune your low end torque quite noticeably. I got the most low end with them at 90*, but ended up with them at about 45* (on my bike I lost some top end with them at 90*). But I can tell you that I don't need to downshift at lower speeds like I used to. ((Baldielox from the XLforum http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=99950&highlight=lollipop))
+You can put a kick starter on a E1980 Sportster if it has a late production 79 motor. ((Hapster  of the XLFORUM)) \\
-  * The sound stays the same when going to throttle, Gives you more torque overall to the motor as it quiets the decel noise overall by giving more backpressure to the pipes. As you decelerate, not only does it do away with the crackling sound but with shorter pipes, it tends to amply the popping sound as you roll off the throttle, and the lollipops reduce the pop in the shorter pipe chambers. ((xlentt01 from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=99950&highlight=lollipop))
+A kick start kit was available for parts order in the -80 parts catalog for 79-80 model XLs. ((1979-1980 HD Parts Catalog (99451-80) pg 29)) \\ The same kit was available in the -81 parts book but it was only sold for 1979 models. ((1979-1981 HD Parts Catalog (99451-81) pg 29)) \\
-  * With mine I would'nt say it quieted the exhaust, but it definitly tones the raspy crackly how ever you want to put it sound down and no more deceleration noise. It has a more powerful bassy sound now.((dave76 from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=99950&highlight=lollipop))
+It's not clear if the same E79 parts were used in the kit or how far back it would retro but the 79-up parts books do not cover previous models. \\
-  * I can say that it undoubtedly gave me better low-end response, and quicker accelleration from stopped AND rolling in first and second gear. ((SLS from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=247790))
-  *  I made a set an tried them out. Fully closed is pretty quiet, really too quiet and a struggle past 5,000 rpm or so, turned them about 1/4 closed and sounds good and it possibly may be torquier. ((1982ironhead from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle&page=4))
-  * This is a dyno chart posted on a website were they tested the pops at different angles, look at the dip in the powerband at 007, of course 007 run is 0° or straight through, 006 run is at 45°, and 005 run is at 90°. Even at 90° it seems you only lost 2 HP on top. ((dave76 from the XLFORUM  http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=99950&highlight=lollipop))
-(Upload chart)
-Although not all are sold on the idea of using them:
-  * What you need is a real performance exhaust that works which means it will have a muffler that works. I wish everyone on here would read Aarons (asw racing) excellent thread on exhaust systems. Open pipes kill your power over 95 % of the rpm range, a lollipop helps a bit but it's still like dragging a boat anchor behind you. The baffles in the muffler do a lot more than just quiet things down. ((misterT from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=583558&highlight=lollipop))
-  * Drag pipes do have their place. It is on the drag strip where the engine runs in a very narrow RPM band. ((http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust.htm))
-===== Different Materials Used =====
-Several different methods of materials have been devised for lollipops all using 1/4" bolts to secure them in the pipes:
-  * (2)- 1" 'I' bolts with 1/4" threads and 1" washers. ((pugster from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=586032&highlight=lollipop))
-  * 1/2 inch washers, coned them with a vise and welded them to the head of 1/4 x 1" bolts, installed them into 2-1/2" SE slip-ons ((Custom73 from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=586032&highlight=lollipop))
-  * Get some 1/4 x 24NC eyebolts, drill a hole in the end of your pipe, then bolt them in with the eye part sitting in the center of your exhaust pipe... ((snowman from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle))
-  * 1 is made from a 1/2" penny washer and the other a 3/4" ((XLdaveR from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle))
-  * First, you will need 2 washers that are 1.25" OD with 1/2" holes in them, (2)- 1/4" bolts that are 1/2" to 1" in length (this depends on the diameter or your pipes!), and either (2) or (4) 1/4" nuts and lockwashers (again, whether you use 2 of them or 4 of them will depend on your pipe diameter). My pipes are 1-3/4", so I only needed (2)- 1/2" bolts and 2 nuts and washers.....2 inch and up will need all 4 nuts in order to space the cones in the center if the pipes. ((SLS from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=247790))
-  *  The most efficient device would be a washer - 1-1/8" OD X 3/4" ID having a 14 or 16 guage thickness with a 7/8" rod pushed completely through its center giving it the smooth bell shape. Then weld this conical annulus to a small bolt that affixes it in the center of the 1 3/4" drag pipe about 2" in from the short side of the slash cut drag pipe(s). Such a device would be able to break up the Reversion packet on the way out AND slow its reformation when reflected back by compressing the fragments slightly. One can experiment with different size rods to push through the center if needed but I think this one would not need to be tilted to work and would be the least restrictive when going for the WOT scenario. ((Fe Head of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle&page=3))
-  * If one wishes to be really aerodynamically correct then take an oversized tube say thin walled 3/8" I.D. and cut to length so it holds the washer in the center and then pinch it on each side when it is on the bolt or even just one side so it can act like a wing to lift the exhaust around the bolt and eliminate that inner nut by using two jam nuts on the outside to hold the conical washer vertically. ((Fe Head of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=581172&highlight=lollipop+baffle&page=3))
-  * For those of you who are willing experiment more, the size of the washer can be increased as can the size of the hole in the washer. A strong spring can be used to hold the washer in place in relationship to the pipe and a "wing nut" arrangement can be used to adjust the angle of the washer. ((http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust.htm))
-===== Fabrication for 'Tunable' Lollipops =====
-   *  You want to 'cone' the washers to a depth of 1/4". I did this using a 13/16" socket and a 7/16" socket in a vise. I found a long 'cheater bar' gave me the needed 'oomph' to 'cone' them nicely. Next, I lightly chucked the bolts (heads up) into my vise, switched on the MIG, and attached the coned washers to the tops of the bolt heads....taking care that the were centered and straight. I then drilled my hole starting with a 3/32 bit and then a 5/32....and then the 1/4. Do yourself a favor and 'wallow' the hole out just a little bit....you'll need the extra room when inserting the cones! You don't want to use a 1'' bolt with a 1-3/4" pipe! It just won't fit! Use a Dremil with a cut-off wheel so the bolts quickly became 1/2" long. Always do yourself a favor and thread a nut onto the bolt before cutting it off, because backing the nut off AFTER the cut is made will 'clean' the threads for you....making assembly a breeze.  You want the 'cone' to be pointing forward (towards the engine!). You will also want in the neighborhood of a 30 degree turn in the washer's relation to the tube. Also, try and get both cones at the same angle in your pipes. I found using a screwdriver placed in the 'eye' of the washer and a 7/16 wrench did the trick.
-   * Speaking of 'favors', get a magnetic probe (or pickup) tool. Not only is it great for getting nuts, bolts, etc. out of tight places where fingers cannot fit (and eyes cannot see), but I found I needed it to get the Cones in place. Fingers and pliers were just not working, but the magnetic probe held it at the PERFECT angle to slip it down the pipe and into the hole. ((SLS from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=247790))
-   * You can tune the baffle by changing the angle of the thumbscrew or washer to the exhaust pipe. For maximum torque, the washer will be at 90 degree angle to the pipe. For maximum horsepower the washer will be parallel to the pipe. ((http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust.htm))
-===== Placement of Lollipops =====
-  * The closer to the end of the pipe the better, but I prefer to place them up in the pipe a little bit to conceal them. Doing this mod will decrease top end horsepower by 2 or 3 rwhp, but the mid range will come alive & thats where it matters on the street. ((ironhead red from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=247790&page=3))
-  * I wrapped a dollar bill around the pipe and made a mark. Ended up being 2-1/2" from the short end of the slash cut. ((DogBunny http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=247790&page=3))
-  * You want to place the Cones at least 2 inches inside your pipes (outlet end!) to achieve the desired results. To find 2" I simply used a short strip of 2" duct tape, wraping it around the pipe, using the shorter of end of my 'slash cut' as a reference point. I then marked the spot where I wanted the hole with a pencil. I want the bolts to be 'hidden' (on the backside of the pipe)and not sticking out the bottom. ((SLS from the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=247790))
-|Read this site later http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust.htm
-|and this http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=583558&highlight=lollipop
-===== Pics of Lollipops Installed =====
+Some early production 1980 models had the same plug hole and bushing for the kicker shaft as the 79 models had. ((Hapster  of the XLFORUM)) \\
+We have confirmation of an early 1980 case with crankcase# (780 347 084), machined December 13, 1979 does have the hole for the kicker. ((OutlawTexan67 of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/28444-kicker-for-1980-ironhead/page3?t=47136&page=3)) \\
+Some 1980 models came with a 1979 engine with 1980 numbers that match the H9 frame - (1979). \\
+So it all depends on if you have a left over production 1979 engine installed. \\
+^Kick Start Kit||
+|1979-E1980|33058-79^
+----
+-E1980 kicker hole plug. \\
+{{:techtalk:ih:engctl:1974_xlh_kicker_hole_plug_by_74_xlh_winchester_va.jpg?direct&300|}} ((photos by 74_XLH_WINCHESTER_VA of the XLFORUM, combined by Hippysmack, https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/90145-kicker-install-on-a-74-xlh?threadid=727978)) \\
+\\
 [[:techtalk:menu|{{:techtalk:gototechnicalmenu.jpg|}}]]

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