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techtalk:ih:oil01 [2019/06/14 03:40]
hippysmack [Oil Lines to the Rockers]
techtalk:ih:oil01 [2019/06/27 03:45] (current)
hippysmack [Low Oil Pressure]
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 The filter mount is mounted on the lower left front engine mount. \\ The filter mount is mounted on the lower left front engine mount. \\
 This has also been a popular practice on earlier bikes. \\ This has also been a popular practice on earlier bikes. \\
- Filter installed on an 80 XLH motor mount. ((photo by hscic of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2053271&​highlight=motor+mount+oil+filter&​page=45)) ​ +|82-E84 motor / filter mount. ((photo by sifty of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1592463&​page=22))|Filter installed on an 80 XLH motor mount. ((photo by hscic of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2053271&​highlight=motor+mount+oil+filter&​page=45))|83 model. ((photo by 83XLX of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​page=22&​t=1592463))
-|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​80_xlh_left_side_by_hscic.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|+|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​82-e84_front_left_motor_mount_by_sifty.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​80_xlh_left_side_by_hscic.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​oil:​oil_cooler_on_83_model_by_83xlx.jpg?​direct&​200|}}|
  
 **----- L1984-1985 Models -----** **----- L1984-1985 Models -----**
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   * There has been occasions where silicon (placed on the oil pump gasket during installation) had made it's way into orifices inside the engine. \\ You can blow compressed air thru oil inlet and outlets in the engine. \\ You can also blow out the oil lines.   * There has been occasions where silicon (placed on the oil pump gasket during installation) had made it's way into orifices inside the engine. \\ You can blow compressed air thru oil inlet and outlets in the engine. \\ You can also blow out the oil lines.
   * The oil check valve could be stuck closed.   * The oil check valve could be stuck closed.
 +  * No oil to the top end:
 +    * Make sure the rubber grommets on each end of the stock rocker feed lines are not partially plugging the ends of the rocker feed lines. \\ Then remove the allen-hex rocker spindle plug from the front exhaust rocker spindle, at the right-hand side of the rocker box. \\ Oil should come out there if you have flow with the engine running. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=831522))
 +    * You can loosen or remove the 1/8" NPT pipe plug from the right side, front corner of each rocker cover. \\ With the engine at idle, you should get a small amount of oil plopping out (not shooting out like a fire hose). ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1625333&​page=3))
 +    * You can also use the same 1/8" plug hole to install a barb and clear hose to visually inspect for oil flow. \\ {{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​checking_for_oil_flow_at_the_rocker_box_by_chevelle.jpg?​direct&​300|}} ((photo by chevelle of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1625333&​page=2))
 +    * Check the pinion shaft to bushing clearance to the specs in the FSM. \\ If the fit is overly loose, this condition will not allow oil to be transferred up the lines at low speed. \\ Oil will just be bled out into the cam chest until RPM sends and over-runs more oil than can be spilled at the bushing.
 +      * If the fit is out of spec, you'll need to replace the bushing. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=831522&​highlight=crankcase+pressure))
 +      * Then line ream it using a special reamer through an old right-hand crankcase half to use to guide to get it in square.
 +     * On 76< motors, it's best to eliminate that possibility before spending time and money yanking the engine out of the frame and inspecting the oil pump. \\ (and before spending money getting a new pinion bushing reamed with the special tooling etc.) ((Hopper of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=831522&​highlight=crankcase+pressure&​page=2)) ​
   * The oil pump could be weak or malfunctioning.   * The oil pump could be weak or malfunctioning.
- +  * 76< pumps: 
 +    * If the pump shaft seal is blown, then the scavenge pump will continue to function because the pump pressure is higher than scavenge pressure. ((XLFREAK of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=831522&​highlight=crankcase+pressure&​page=4)) \\ So oil will flow from your pump down the shaft into the scavenge pump and goes back to the tank from there. \\ It's possible the pump got some trash in it and got scarred and now just doesn'​t pump very well. \\ It's a nasty job getting the thing off, made doubly nasty if you don't find anything wrong. \\ If you have an oil flow problem from the pump, you can either rebuild it or put a new one on just to make sure that this is not the problem. \\ If it isn't the pump, then start looking for leaks.
  
 **If oil is not returning to the oil tank**: \\ **If oil is not returning to the oil tank**: \\
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 So, it is possible but not likely to have a stuck closed check valve with no oil light on. \\ So, it is possible but not likely to have a stuck closed check valve with no oil light on. \\
  
 +====== Top End Oiling ======
 +===== Cam Cover Oiling =====
 +The oil going up to the top end not only passes by the bushing in the cam chest, but also is fed to and from the cam cover and through the cam cover gasket. ((XLFREAK of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=831522&​highlight=crankcase+pressure&​page=2)) \\
 +It is possible for the gasket to blow out and seal up the oil galley feed passages. \\
 +Also if silicon was used on the cover, it is possible for that to break loose and stop up the passages. \\
 +You can take the cover off and run a tap down all the threaded holes to clear out any obstructions. \\
 +Also check that the face of the cover and case are not marred by some big scratch or dent. \\
 +To get old silicone out of bolt holes, you can use an inflation needle for footballs/​basketballs/​soccerballs. ((rivethog of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=831522&​highlight=crankcase+pressure&​page=2)) \\
 +Cut the tip off of it then screw it into the end of an air blowgun. \\ 
 +It's narrow enough that it doesn'​t block debris from getting out of the hole. \\
  
-====== Crankcase Ventilation ====== +|Oil path of 85 style cam cover ((photo by billeuze of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1103082))| 
-====== (or Foo Foo Valve) ======+|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​85_cam_cover_1_by_billeuze_annotated_by_hippysmack.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|
  
-===== Ironhead Engine breather 101 Through 1985 ===== +===== Oil Lines to the Rockers ​===== 
-WHAT IS IT? +There are rubber grommets on both ends of the oil lines. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=753175&highlight=split+rocker+box)) \\ 
-  * The slang term "​FooFoo"​ comes from the annoying sound that it makes when it gets clogged up with oil residue. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1332902&page=3)) +Some guys install two on each endwhich is a wrong thing to do\\ 
-  * The engine breather, or crankcase vent as Harley sometimes calls it, is to allow air out of the lower crankcase, but not in, as the pistons rise and fallWithout some kind of controlled breather, ​the lower end would become a 1,000cc air compressor, robbing ​the engine of several horsepowerOld time tuners like Jerry Branch, Tom Sifton and Dick O’Brien paid much attention to the engine breather because they knew it could give them extra horsepower if set up right. +Sometimes ​the rubber from an improperly installed grommet plugs the oil line\\ 
-  *  One thing not to do with an engine breather is to simply plumb a hose to the crankcase without some kind of one-way valve or timed breather valve. It is commonly donebut it wastes power and is not good for your engine+Before going into the gearcase (to check for low / no oil to the rocker boxes); \\ 
 +Remove both oil lines, and check the rubbers on both ends of each\\
  
-WHERE IS IT? + Oil line sleeves. ((photos by sc72 of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?​t=1704463))  || 
-  * **Pre-1977** +|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​83_model_oil_line_sleeves_1_by_sc72.jpg?​direct&​250|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​83_model_oil_line_sleeves_1_by_sc72.jpg?direct&250|}}| 
-      * There is a timed breather valve built into the oil pump drive, which vents crankcase pressure into the cam timing chestA six-inch metal tube hanging down from the timing cover near the generator drive, at the 6 o’clock position vents that controlled pressure to atmosphere. A metal disc on the end of the generator drive gear centrifugally separates oil from the air as it is discharged overboard.  +===== Rocker Box ===== 
-  * **1977-78 only** ​((Hopper)) ((HD Service Bulletin #M-708 dated December 1, 1976)) +The feed to the rockers ​is not large diameter passage and not a lot of oil goes to the rocker ​gear. ((Ferrous Head of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=753175&​highlight=split+rocker+box)) \\ 
-      * The timed breather on the oil pump drive was droppedA new design breather valve (24633-77) was used in late 1977 model XL/XLCH/XLT engines produced around October 15, 1976All 1000cc engine numbers (3A, 4A or 2G27940H7 and above had the new breather valveIt serves the same function as the gear driven breather valve used on 1976 and earlier engines to maintain a partial vacuum in the engine and prevent ​oil leakageDue to it's improvements in doing so, it was suggested to be retrofitted to all 1977 XL XLCH engines. +But if you pull the lines off with the engine running you should be getting ​good steady flow out of them\\
-      ​* ​The one-way valve is contained in fitting which screws into the gear-case cover below the generator mounting bossThe existing breather outlet pipe screws into the bottom of the new fitting. The outlet pipe because of its lower position must be directed outside ​(instead ​of inside) ​the frame tubeThe rubber hose at the pipe outlet must no longer be used+
-      * Because of the higher vacuum existing in the engines equipped ​with this new breather valve, a higher pressure oil pump check valve (26435-76A) was installed in L1977 oil pumps at the same time to provide higher oil pressure at the oil pressure light switch.  +
-      * The new valve opens at 4-6 PSI whereas the old valve opens at 2-4 PSI. Pumps having the new valve are identified with green dot. The existing 0-ring (26433- 77) was used for both new and old valves. +
-      *  An external non-return valve was plumbed into the vent tube sticking down from the timing cover at the generator drive. This allows air out, but not in. It is sometimes referred to as the foo-foo valve. Searching the XLFORUM for __foo foo valve__ or __foo-foo__ will lead to extensive discussions ​of this mystical device.+
  
-|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​77-78_ext_foo_foo_valve_1_by_hopper.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​77-78_ext_foo_foo_valve_2_by_hopper.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​77-78_ext_foo_foo_valve_3_by_hopper.jpg?​direct&​300|}}| +====== Bottom End Oiling ======
-|  77-78 Crankcase Ventilation Valve ((photo by Hopper of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​p=1960632)) ​ |+
  
-  * **1979-E1982**. 
-      * The external foo-foo valve and the six-inch metal vent tube at the front of the timing cover were done away with. Instead, a one-way foo-foo valve was built inside the timing cover. A rubber breather hose then ran from the generator drive area of the timing cover, at the 9 o’clock position. It connected to the stock air filter so that any oil mist was fed back through the engine, making the EPA pollutocrats more happier than they were with the idea of engine oil spraying out into the atmosphere. The generator had a (1-5/​8"​ O.D.) oil separator washer on the end of the armature shaft. ((HD Service Bulletin #M-848 dated April 9, 1982)) 
  
-  * **L1982-1985** +====== Transfer Valve (76 and earlier) ====== 
-      ​* ​The internal crankcase breather valve was redesigned to incorporate a rubber umbrella valve attached to the base plate along with a larger diameter ​(1-3/4" O.D.) oil separator washer on the generator armature. ((HD Service Bulletin #M-848 dated April 9, 1982))+The foregoing by Dr Dick ((http://xlforum.net/​forums/​showpost.php?​p=3886388&​postcount=40))
  
-Many of these bikes with custom air filters simply run that hose down to the bottom of the frame and let the oil mist blow out in the time honored manner. \\ +The transfer valve is staked into position. ((Ferrous Head of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=581947&​page=6)) \\ 
-That is fine too, as long as you are not an EPA man. \\ +Look very close around ​the edges and you'll see two spots that have been lightly punched. \\ 
 +If you clean the metal away from there with a sharp instrument it will come out fairly easily. \\
  
-Just to add to the knowledge base, here is a pic of IronMick'​s internal foo-foo in his post-79 model on the left\\ +|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_by_fourcams.jpg?​direct&​250|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_1_by_ironheadjunkie.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_2_by_ironheadjunkie.jpg?​direct&​300|}}| 
-You can see the 9 oclock fitting and the 6 oclock fitting both enter the same cavity\\ +|  Transfer valve ((photo by FourCams ​of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=581947)) ​ |  Transfer ​valve location ​((photos by ironheadjunkie http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1495746)) ​ ||
-The pic on the right is of an 85 cam cover with the foofoo ​valve (baffle tube) off to the left of it\\+
  
-{{techtalk:​ih:​oil:​ihcamcoverxlf.jpg?​direct&​250|}} ((photo by ryder rick of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=518948&​page=2)) {{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​85_cam_cover_1_by_billeuze.jpg?​direct&​300|}} ((photo by billeuze of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1103082)) 
  
-ALTERNATIVES 
-  * There is a product called a Krankvent that can be plumbed into the lower, 6 o’clock position as an alternative to a stock foo-foo valve. But they are not cheap. 
-  * Automotive PCV valves are not really made to handle the revs or air volumes of a Harley. While a car engine is bigger, it has one piston coming down while one goes up, so not much change in internal crankcase volume, so not much breathing to be done. A Harley has two pistons and rods on one crankpin, so is one giant air compressor. 
-  * Some guys have found that plumbing in a 77-78 foo-foo valve on the later model engines improves breathing. ​ 
-LINKS- Discussion on foo-foo valves and engine breathers pics etc here: 
-[[http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=213630]] 
  
-There are other threads but this pretty much covers it all anyhow. Pretty simple but seems to cause repeated headaches for such a pesky little thing((Hopper from the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=518948&​highlight=wet+sumping))+The purpose of the transfer valve is to keep your garage floor clean\\ 
 +It's an oil control device to control ​the oil in order to keep it in your bike\\ 
 +There is so much speculation on this subject that sometimes the myth becomes the reality
  
 +  * The transfer valve is a part of a bigger system. \\ A system that we often break down into its components. \\ Then we deal with the (target component) often losing sight of the big picture. \\ It's our nature as mechanical guys. \\ Pin point the problem and then bring the hammers of Hell to bear on it. \\ If we can let go of that instinct for a moment this will make perfect sense. \\ So you want to think big picture here.
  
-====== Top End Oiling ====== +  * **The Transfer Valve**: 
-===== Lifter Oiling ===== +  - **Fact**: If you blow thru the valve it only allows flow from primary to engine. ​ 
-|Oil path of 85 style cam cover ((photo by billeuze ​of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1103082))| +  - **Fiction**:​ That means its a one way check valve. Bad assumption. \\ It allows flow one way only when pressure is different one side of valve to other. See #3. 
-|{{:​techtalk:​ih:oil:​85_cam_cover_1_by_billeuze_annotated_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&​300|}}|+  - **Fact**: When taken apart carefully as not to bend the triangular reed we find no spring that '​checks'​ the valve when pressure differential is absent. \\ So it's allowed to '​leak'​ in state of equilibrium.  
 +  - **Fiction**:​ There'​s something missing from this valve. \\ That's why its not checking and allowing leaking oil into my primary as I found when I left the primary ​cover off an saw the trail of oil from the valve. \\ **If you dismiss the assumptions** and stick with what we can prove this truth emerges\\ **The transfer valve is a one way feed when engine is running but not when engine is static**\\ (then it's relaxed and oil leaks from motor thru it) 
 +  - **Fact**: Oil is leaking out of your valve when the primary cover is off\\ (it's leaking when the primary cover is on too)  
 +  - **Fiction**There'​s only supposed to be a small amount of oil in the motor so there'​s something else wrong tooWhat could that be\\ Aha, it's got to be the check valve in the oil pump leaking. \\ (This is the spot you go off course chasing ghosts. Because your motor is not running, oil is leaking into it before it even gets to the check valve). ​  
 +  * You are told to inspect the check valve in response to any noticeable change that increases oil exiting thru the breather tube. \\ Because a check that leaks will shorten the time it takes to fill the motor enough to puke.  
 +  * Even a perfectly sealed check can't stop oil that's getting in thru a different path. 
 +  * If we slow down now and think, we get to this: \\ In order for the pump check to leak, oil has to get to the tank side of pump check. \\ In order to get there its got to sneak past gear clearance in pump (which it obviously does). \\ But this is not the only place this errant oil can go:
  
-===== Oil Lines to the Rockers ===== +|On the way to the check, it finds clearance here, where \\ the breather valve fits thru the upper oil pump housing.|Where it leaks into the space between the breather ​\\ sleeve and housingexiting at the first place it can \\ (the bottom of slot in the upper housing).|Now, it's filling ​the breather passage that leads to the \\ crank caseThis passage is located lower than \\ the floor of the cam chest.| 
-There are rubber grommets on both ends of the oil lines((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=753175&​highlight=split+rocker+box)) ​\\ +|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_explained_1_by_dr_dick.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_explained_2_by_dr_dick.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_explained_3_by_dr_dick.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|
-Some guys install two on each endwhich is a wrong thing to do. \\ +
-Sometimes ​the rubber from an improperly installed grommet plugs the oil line\\ +
-Before going into the gearcase (to check for low / no oil to the rocker boxes); ​\\ +
-Remove both oil lines, and check the rubbers on both ends of each. \\+
  
-===== Rocker Box ===== +  * So, oil is now filling the crankcase ​and not the cam chest\\ The factory made sure that it happened like this. \\ They wanted this unchecked oil to stay out of the cam chest so that your bike is less likely to puke oil. 
-The feed to the rockers ​is not a large diameter passage ​and not a lot of oil goes to the rocker gear((Ferrous Head of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=753175&​highlight=split+rocker+box)) ​\\ +  * They didn't want the oil to just sit in the case sump either because it would just end up in the cam case soon after the bike was started. 
-But if you pull the lines off with the engine ​running you should be getting ​good steady flow out of them\\+  * They wanted to somehow '​transfer'​ it to a reservoir allowing it to re-enter ​the engine ​in controlled volume that the return pump could handle without being drowned.
  
-====== Bottom End Oiling ======+|Look at the position of the valve compared to the \\ breather passage. It's about even.|Go back to the 1st case pic. Note, the floor of the cam \\ chest is about even to the bottom of the pinion race. \\ Now look at the position of breather passage in \\ regards to floor of cam chest. Chest floor is higher, \\ breather passage lower. Crap flows downstream.|  
 +|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_explained_4_by_dr_dick.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ih:​oil:​transfer_valve_explained_5_by_dr_dick.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|
  
 +  * So oil flowing unchecked into the pump from the oil supply line leaks clear thru engine into primary before it can start to fill the cam chest. \\ On the primary side though, there is plenty of room to fill with the errant oil.
 +  * The transfer valve '​transfers'​ "pre pump check" oil leakage out of the motor and into the primary. \\ Where it re-enters the engine on startup in a controlled volume that the return pump could handle without being drowned.
 +  * In other words, it '​transfers'​ it back to engine when bike starts. ​
 +  * This is the improvement refined from the 52-54 siphon tube that used the same valve guts.
 +  * It does makes perfect sense don't it?
 +  * Now, given some thought you will see why the valves aren't used on the racers.
 +  * The '77 style oil system did away with the unchecked supply leakage. (so there is no reason to '​transfer'​ what isn't there).
 +  * **It's name is absolutely 100% correct: It's the transfer valve**.
 +  * The factory 'got it right' with this part. 
 +  * **Keep an eye on the big picture**.
  
 ====== Wet Sumping ====== ====== Wet Sumping ======