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| ===== Too Much Advance Timing? ===== | ===== Too Much Advance Timing? ===== | ||
| - | Quoting XLForum member, **ASWRacing**:((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1650461 Post#12))\\ | + | Quoting XLForum member, **ASWRacing**:((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/153340-a-timing-question?t=1650461+Post#12))\\ |
| **A Perspective by Aaron Wilson of Hammer Performance. (June 2013)**\\ | **A Perspective by Aaron Wilson of Hammer Performance. (June 2013)**\\ | ||
| | I've dyno'ed thousands of bikes over a long period of time, and on many many of them I've dialed in the timing during the process. Advanced it until the power dropped off, retarded it until the power dropped off, and then centered it in between those two locations. I've also played with curves a lot.\\ \\ **I'm here to tell you that too much timing most definitely costs power, and on the vast majority of bikes, the optimum timing is well below the threshold of ping. Running more timing than optimum makes your motor run hotter and puts the pistons at risk and the threshold of ping is a terrible place to put the timing on most bikes!**\\ \\ Most of these bikes, when they have reasonable compression and chamber turbulence (i.e. a squish band), will want their ignition timing set for about 28-30 degrees max advance at WOT. Going past that starts hurting power and making the motors run hot.\\ \\ When you do a performance build, you really should get an aftermarket ignition, because not only can you turn down the timing, you can bring the timing in more slowly. You almost always find power when you do that on a higher compression build! Most of the motors like it so slow that it's not all-in until 4500-5000rpm. On many ignitions, I've found the best power on the softest curve available. For example, the Dyna 2000 curve 4 almost always works the best if the bike under test has 10:1 compression or more. On a Twin Tec TC88A I literally found the best power on my 04 883/1250 on initial 2 / slope 0. That's the softest curve and almost the least amount of timing the module can give.\\ \\ Getting this notion out of people's heads that more timing = more power has always been a huge challenge in this business. When you're talking about a performance build, the exact opposite is almost always true. We have a vested interest in seeing our customers get this right, because we don't want complaints of scuffed or broken pistons, and that's exactly what will happen if you run the timing too high, sooner or later. | | | I've dyno'ed thousands of bikes over a long period of time, and on many many of them I've dialed in the timing during the process. Advanced it until the power dropped off, retarded it until the power dropped off, and then centered it in between those two locations. I've also played with curves a lot.\\ \\ **I'm here to tell you that too much timing most definitely costs power, and on the vast majority of bikes, the optimum timing is well below the threshold of ping. Running more timing than optimum makes your motor run hotter and puts the pistons at risk and the threshold of ping is a terrible place to put the timing on most bikes!**\\ \\ Most of these bikes, when they have reasonable compression and chamber turbulence (i.e. a squish band), will want their ignition timing set for about 28-30 degrees max advance at WOT. Going past that starts hurting power and making the motors run hot.\\ \\ When you do a performance build, you really should get an aftermarket ignition, because not only can you turn down the timing, you can bring the timing in more slowly. You almost always find power when you do that on a higher compression build! Most of the motors like it so slow that it's not all-in until 4500-5000rpm. On many ignitions, I've found the best power on the softest curve available. For example, the Dyna 2000 curve 4 almost always works the best if the bike under test has 10:1 compression or more. On a Twin Tec TC88A I literally found the best power on my 04 883/1250 on initial 2 / slope 0. That's the softest curve and almost the least amount of timing the module can give.\\ \\ Getting this notion out of people's heads that more timing = more power has always been a huge challenge in this business. When you're talking about a performance build, the exact opposite is almost always true. We have a vested interest in seeing our customers get this right, because we don't want complaints of scuffed or broken pistons, and that's exactly what will happen if you run the timing too high, sooner or later. | | ||
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| On newer, **fully electronic ignition modules** (such as the Ultima, Dynatek or other modules), which do not use mechanical advance mechanisms, the electronic module will calculate (internally) the proper amount of timing advance based on not only RPM but also on intake vacuum in the manifold. For these modules, they must be synchronized by **SETTING THE MODULE AT TOP DEAD CENTER** (no advance). Since the electronic module calculates when to produce the spark, it can use the TDC synchronized setting as a reference for any advance it is programmed to use. | On newer, **fully electronic ignition modules** (such as the Ultima, Dynatek or other modules), which do not use mechanical advance mechanisms, the electronic module will calculate (internally) the proper amount of timing advance based on not only RPM but also on intake vacuum in the manifold. For these modules, they must be synchronized by **SETTING THE MODULE AT TOP DEAD CENTER** (no advance). Since the electronic module calculates when to produce the spark, it can use the TDC synchronized setting as a reference for any advance it is programmed to use. | ||
| - | If you don't have the ability to reprogram your module, the timing curve endpoints can be altered (which moves the starting & ending points) by adjusting the base plate clockwise (for more advance) or counterclockwise (for less advance). Move the plate in very small increments as the tick marks indicate 2-5° each. "If you measure the timing marks on a stock pickup plate, they're about .065" apart, i.e. about 5 degrees."((aswracing Post#18 - http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1423947)) | + | If you don't have the ability to reprogram your module, the timing curve endpoints can be altered (which moves the starting & ending points) by adjusting the base plate clockwise (for more advance) or counterclockwise (for less advance). Move the plate in very small increments as the tick marks indicate 2-5° each. "If you measure the timing marks on a stock pickup plate, they're about .065" apart, i.e. about 5 degrees."((aswracing Post#18 - https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/132853-timing-question-on-a-1250-conversion?t=1423947)) |
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| ===== Manifold Absolute Pressure -vs- Vacuum Reading ===== | ===== Manifold Absolute Pressure -vs- Vacuum Reading ===== | ||
| - | Quoting XLForum member, **RacerWill**:((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1422868 Post#27))\\ | + | Quoting XLForum member, **RacerWill**:((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/132778-daytona-tc88a-do-your-own-mapping-tips-questions?t=1422868+Post#27))\\ |
| | Just a quick note on MAP(Manifold Absolute Pressure). First, the word "absolute" refers to where zero is placed on the scale. In PSI Absolute, 0 psi is a perfect vacuum and atmospheric pressure is 14.696 psi approx. In PSIg (gauge) atmospheric pressure is zero and a perfect vacuum is -14.696PSIg (equal to 30 inches of mercury, InHg). Kilopascals is the metric version of the absolute measure where a perfect vacuum is zero and atmospheric pressure is 101.325 kPa.\\ \\ The MAP value represents engine load - a higher number represents higher load (more open throttle compared to RPM).\\ \\ For example:\\ Cruising along at 3000rpm on a slight down grade has very low engine load and a lower MAP (kPa) number. If that slight downgrade turns into a steep uphill, you open the throttle to maintain 3000 rpm and the same speed. The MAP (kPa) number starts to climb towards atmospheric pressure 30 InHg (101.3 kPa).| | | Just a quick note on MAP(Manifold Absolute Pressure). First, the word "absolute" refers to where zero is placed on the scale. In PSI Absolute, 0 psi is a perfect vacuum and atmospheric pressure is 14.696 psi approx. In PSIg (gauge) atmospheric pressure is zero and a perfect vacuum is -14.696PSIg (equal to 30 inches of mercury, InHg). Kilopascals is the metric version of the absolute measure where a perfect vacuum is zero and atmospheric pressure is 101.325 kPa.\\ \\ The MAP value represents engine load - a higher number represents higher load (more open throttle compared to RPM).\\ \\ For example:\\ Cruising along at 3000rpm on a slight down grade has very low engine load and a lower MAP (kPa) number. If that slight downgrade turns into a steep uphill, you open the throttle to maintain 3000 rpm and the same speed. The MAP (kPa) number starts to climb towards atmospheric pressure 30 InHg (101.3 kPa).| | ||
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| | | BROWN | Tachometer Trigger | Tachometer Trigger | | | | BROWN | Tachometer Trigger | Tachometer Trigger | | ||
| - | (http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49655) | + | (https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/29798-more-q-s-about-se-ignition-mod-for-91-sporty?t=49655) |
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| **XLForum Discussions of the Twin Tec TC88A module**\\ | **XLForum Discussions of the Twin Tec TC88A module**\\ | ||
| - | http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=518158 - Foxster - Screamin' Eagle versus TC88A ignition modules for '04-'06 Sportsters \\ | + | https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-buell-motorcycle-forum-general-discussion/product-reviews/74112-screamin-eagle-versus-tc88a-ignition-modules-for-04-06-sportsters?t=518158 - Foxster - Screamin' Eagle versus TC88A ignition modules for '04-'06 Sportsters \\ |
| - | http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1525483 - ESteid - Installing a Twin-Tech TC88A on an 04\\ | + | https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/140699-installing-a-twin-tech-tc88a-on-an-04?t=1525483 - ESteid - Installing a Twin-Tech TC88A on an 04\\ |
| **Further Note: EX Version** | **Further Note: EX Version** | ||
| * There is also an EX Version of the TC88A with an expanded advance curve table (which is not as popular as the default TC88A, the Race Version). The EX version allows setting advance values for lower pressure conditions (10, 12 & 14 In/Hg). However, there does not appear to be much advantage to these settings. Note the following information from Daytona support: | * There is also an EX Version of the TC88A with an expanded advance curve table (which is not as popular as the default TC88A, the Race Version). The EX version allows setting advance values for lower pressure conditions (10, 12 & 14 In/Hg). However, there does not appear to be much advantage to these settings. Note the following information from Daytona support: | ||
| - | * "From Daytona... Very few engines require additional spark advance below 16 in-Hg manifold pressure. The TC88A uses the 16 In-Hg value for all lower pressures. As further clarification, internal cylinder pressure is so low under these conditions (MAP below 16 in-Hg) that maximum spark advance values near 45 degrees are reasonable for most engine applications. Since 45 degrees is the maximum advance the TC88 series is capable of, there is no reason to complicate the advance tables. Even higher advance values yield little benefit." ((60Gunner at http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5800214&postcount=251))\\ | + | * "From Daytona... Very few engines require additional spark advance below 16 in-Hg manifold pressure. The TC88A uses the 16 In-Hg value for all lower pressures. As further clarification, internal cylinder pressure is so low under these conditions (MAP below 16 in-Hg) that maximum spark advance values near 45 degrees are reasonable for most engine applications. Since 45 degrees is the maximum advance the TC88 series is capable of, there is no reason to complicate the advance tables. Even higher advance values yield little benefit." ((60Gunner at https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/132778-daytona-tc88a-do-your-own-mapping-tips-questions/page17?postcount=251#post4369483))\\ |
| TC88A-EX Version Install [[http://daytona-twintec.com/Content/TC88A/1009-EX_Instructions.doc]]\\ | TC88A-EX Version Install [[http://daytona-twintec.com/Content/TC88A/1009-EX_Instructions.doc]]\\ | ||
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| The Dyna 2000i (D2Ki-1p) is a self-contained ignition module meaning the timing sensors are built onto the timing plate, located in the 'nosecone'. The timing rotor cup passes thru the sensors on the back of the timing plate to trigger the ignition module. While this module and the Ultima module are similar in installation & wiring, the selectable internal curve sets are different ([[techtalk:ref:engctl01#ultima_-_nosecone_ignition_control_module|Ultima Module]]). | The Dyna 2000i (D2Ki-1p) is a self-contained ignition module meaning the timing sensors are built onto the timing plate, located in the 'nosecone'. The timing rotor cup passes thru the sensors on the back of the timing plate to trigger the ignition module. While this module and the Ultima module are similar in installation & wiring, the selectable internal curve sets are different ([[techtalk:ref:engctl01#ultima_-_nosecone_ignition_control_module|Ultima Module]]). | ||
| - | | **Dyna 2000i Switch Options** - OFF(F) or ON(O)\\ \\ **Sw1 - Mode Selection**\\ F - Typical Setting - Used on most bikes\\ O - Retard Mode for Nitrous or Turbo engine\\ \\ **Sw2 & Sw3** - Choose Curve Selection (sets)\\ F / F - Adv Curve1 - Most Aggressive\\ O / F - Adv Curve2 - Near Stock\\ F / O - Adv Curve3 - Slower to reach max\\ O / O - Adv Curve4 - Least Aggressive\\ \\ Each curve set selection consists of two\\ internal curves controlled by the VOES:\\ One curve is VOES=ON for Idle/Cruise\\ The other curve is VOES=OFF for WOT\\ \\ **Sw4 & Sw5** - Used as a set for RPM Limit\\ F / F - 6000 RPM for stock engine\\ O / F - 6500 RPM modified street engine\\ F / O - 7000 RPM race engine - be careful\\ O / O - 7500 RPM race engine - be careful\\ \\ **Sw6 - Coil Trigger Control**\\ F - Dual-Fire Coil Control - One Trigger Signal\\ O -- Single-Fire Coil Control - Two Separate Triggers | {{:techtalk:ref:engctl:dynatek-d2000i-module.jpg?300|}}((Pic by jordan1200 - http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2069595))\\ \\ **RED LED - Status Indicator**\\ **--> Used to set Reference Timing at TDC**\\ At Power ON, should blink for 1/4 second\\ Rapid Blinking (Engine NOT Running) = a fault occured\\ Reset after faults - Turn power off for 1-2 seconds\\ Blinking (Engine Running) = Normal Coil Triggers\\ \\ **GREEN LED - VOES/RTD Indicator**\\ Indicates the status of the VOES/RTD input signal wire.\\ For VOES, when ON, the input signal line is grounded,\\ indicating use of the more Advanced Curve. | | + | | **Dyna 2000i Switch Options** - OFF(F) or ON(O)\\ \\ **Sw1 - Mode Selection**\\ F - Typical Setting - Used on most bikes\\ O - Retard Mode for Nitrous or Turbo engine\\ \\ **Sw2 & Sw3** - Choose Curve Selection (sets)\\ F / F - Adv Curve1 - Most Aggressive\\ O / F - Adv Curve2 - Near Stock\\ F / O - Adv Curve3 - Slower to reach max\\ O / O - Adv Curve4 - Least Aggressive\\ \\ Each curve set selection consists of two\\ internal curves controlled by the VOES:\\ One curve is VOES=ON for Idle/Cruise\\ The other curve is VOES=OFF for WOT\\ \\ **Sw4 & Sw5** - Used as a set for RPM Limit\\ F / F - 6000 RPM for stock engine\\ O / F - 6500 RPM modified street engine\\ F / O - 7000 RPM race engine - be careful\\ O / O - 7500 RPM race engine - be careful\\ \\ **Sw6 - Coil Trigger Control**\\ F - Dual-Fire Coil Control - One Trigger Signal\\ O -- Single-Fire Coil Control - Two Separate Triggers | {{:techtalk:ref:engctl:dynatek-d2000i-module.jpg?300|}}((Pic by jordan1200 - https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/193542-dynamic-timing-the-2000i?t=2069595))\\ \\ **RED LED - Status Indicator**\\ **--> Used to set Reference Timing at TDC**\\ At Power ON, should blink for 1/4 second\\ Rapid Blinking (Engine NOT Running) = a fault occured\\ Reset after faults - Turn power off for 1-2 seconds\\ Blinking (Engine Running) = Normal Coil Triggers\\ \\ **GREEN LED - VOES/RTD Indicator**\\ Indicates the status of the VOES/RTD input signal wire.\\ For VOES, when ON, the input signal line is grounded,\\ indicating use of the more Advanced Curve. | |
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| The install instructions (2801103 Rev. C version) from Dynatek are [[https://www.dynaonline.com/amfile/file/download/file/5852/product/4017/|HERE]]. Also [[https://www.wwag.com/step/pdf/123271.pdf|HERE]]. Older install instructions are [[https://files.ekmcdn.com/dynojet/resources/other/d2ki-1p.pdf|HERE]].\\ | The install instructions (2801103 Rev. C version) from Dynatek are [[https://www.dynaonline.com/amfile/file/download/file/5852/product/4017/|HERE]]. Also [[https://www.wwag.com/step/pdf/123271.pdf|HERE]]. Older install instructions are [[https://files.ekmcdn.com/dynojet/resources/other/d2ki-1p.pdf|HERE]].\\ | ||
| - | You may want to read the discussion about the curves & VOES in this [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2079914|XLForum thread]]. | + | You may want to read the discussion about the curves & VOES in this [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-electrical/sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/202710-2000i-install-question?t=2079914|XLForum thread]]. |
| An exmaple of using the D2Ki module to replace the 1998-2003 1200S ignition can be seen [[techtalk:ref:engctl01a|HERE]]. | An exmaple of using the D2Ki module to replace the 1998-2003 1200S ignition can be seen [[techtalk:ref:engctl01a|HERE]]. | ||
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| PSEBYL of the XLForum created a review of the DSPT-1 Module on his 883.\\ | PSEBYL of the XLForum created a review of the DSPT-1 Module on his 883.\\ | ||
| - | **His thread is here:** http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73957 | + | **His thread is here:** https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-buell-motorcycle-forum-general-discussion/product-reviews/37408-review-dynatek-dspt-1-ignition-module?t=73957 |
| His overview included this info: | His overview included this info: | ||
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| The following pictures are from xlSleeper on the XLForum.\\ | The following pictures are from xlSleeper on the XLForum.\\ | ||
| - | **His thread is here:** http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1191285 | + | **His thread is here:** https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-motor-top-end/121597-my-1250-build?t=1191285 |
| {{:techtalk:ref:engctl:dynatek-dspt1-module.jpg?400|}} | {{:techtalk:ref:engctl:dynatek-dspt1-module.jpg?400|}} | ||
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| [[https://www.sscycle.com/docs/default-source/instruction-sheets/510-0277-hi-4n-ignition.pdf|Install Instructions 510-0277 (12-15-14) PDF]] | [[https://www.sscycle.com/docs/default-source/instruction-sheets/510-0277-hi-4n-ignition.pdf|Install Instructions 510-0277 (12-15-14) PDF]] | ||
| - | | The MODE SWITCH will select the following configurations:\\ \\ Single-Fire for electric start models:\\ 0 Single Spark, Race Curve\\ 1 Single Spark, OE Curve\\ 2 Multi Spark, Race Curve\\ 3 Multi Spark, OE Curve\\ \\ Dual-Fire for electric start models:\\ 4 Single Spark, Race Curve\\ 5 Single Spark, OE Curve\\ 6 Multi Spark, Race Curve\\ 7 Multi Spark, OE Curve\\ \\ For Kick Start Bikes (uses OEM curve with Single Spark):\\ 8 Single Fire\\ 9 Dual Fire\\ | {{:techtalk:ref:engctl:sns-crane-hi-4n-ignitionmodule.jpg?400|}}((Pic from Doug Funny - http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1751610)) | | + | | The MODE SWITCH will select the following configurations:\\ \\ Single-Fire for electric start models:\\ 0 Single Spark, Race Curve\\ 1 Single Spark, OE Curve\\ 2 Multi Spark, Race Curve\\ 3 Multi Spark, OE Curve\\ \\ Dual-Fire for electric start models:\\ 4 Single Spark, Race Curve\\ 5 Single Spark, OE Curve\\ 6 Multi Spark, Race Curve\\ 7 Multi Spark, OE Curve\\ \\ For Kick Start Bikes (uses OEM curve with Single Spark):\\ 8 Single Fire\\ 9 Dual Fire\\ | {{:techtalk:ref:engctl:sns-crane-hi-4n-ignitionmodule.jpg?400|}}((Pic from Doug Funny - https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/163044-timing-issues-with-crane-hi-4n?t=1751610)) | |
| The ADVANCE RATE Switch provides selectable curves from 0 to 9, with 0 being the least aggressive ignition timing curve and 9 being the most aggressive (gets to maximum advance quickest). Setting 4 or 5 is thus a mid-point selection. | The ADVANCE RATE Switch provides selectable curves from 0 to 9, with 0 being the least aggressive ignition timing curve and 9 being the most aggressive (gets to maximum advance quickest). Setting 4 or 5 is thus a mid-point selection. | ||
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| Ultima offers (__as of 2023__) two versions of the 53-644 Ignition Module. The standard version has a 3-dead-rev programming to meet the needs of most EVO engines. This is reprogrammable as needed. It also offers a model 53-644K version which is supplied already programmed for 0-dead-revs for better starting on Kicker models. | Ultima offers (__as of 2023__) two versions of the 53-644 Ignition Module. The standard version has a 3-dead-rev programming to meet the needs of most EVO engines. This is reprogrammable as needed. It also offers a model 53-644K version which is supplied already programmed for 0-dead-revs for better starting on Kicker models. | ||
| - | According to Ultima, the ignition module included in the ignition kit identified as 53-660 (which includes the module, proper coil, proper timing cup, spark plug wires & misc parts) has been pre-programmed to 0-dead-revs, which is compatible with kick-only Sportsters. It is a very complete conversion kit.((Jeff in Post#57 - http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2082634)) | + | According to Ultima, the ignition module included in the ignition kit identified as 53-660 (which includes the module, proper coil, proper timing cup, spark plug wires & misc parts) has been pre-programmed to 0-dead-revs, which is compatible with kick-only Sportsters. It is a very complete conversion kit.((Jeff in Post#57 - https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/205213-broke-down-and-ordered-an-ultima-ignition-kit?t=2082634)) |
| For an example of an install on an Ironhead, see this thread:\\ | For an example of an install on an Ironhead, see this thread:\\ | ||
| - | http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1747557 | + | https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/162717-quick-ultima-question?t=1747557 |
| Other similar discussion threads about the Ultima module.\\ | Other similar discussion threads about the Ultima module.\\ | ||
| - | http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1223921\\ | + | https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/123464-ultima-digital-ignition-questions-for-those-running-it?t=1223921\\ |
| - | http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2082634\\ | + | https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/205213-broke-down-and-ordered-an-ultima-ignition-kit?t=2082634\\ |
| \\ | \\ | ||
