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techtalk:ref:engctl01 [2020/01/12 00:55]
ixl2relax [Too Much Advance Timing?]
techtalk:ref:engctl01 [2020/01/12 00:56]
ixl2relax [Why Adjust The Spark Timing?]
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 | One of the things that makes understanding timing difficult is that we're talking about 2 different time frames - crankshaft degrees for spark and real time combustion. We light the fire based on crankshaft degrees and engine load but actual burn time is in real time. To get optimal performance we need to light the fire early enough so it has just the right amount of real time to reach max cylinder pressure just after TDC - so it can expand and smoothly push the piston down, this is called MEP or Mean Effective Pressure.\\ \\ Typically, you want max pressure to occur about 7 degrees after TDC. Running too much advance starts the burn too early and max pressure happens at or before TDC, causing "​ping"​ (actually knock). Conversely, not enough advance to the spark causes max pressure to happen too late, producing less power and laboring the engine, making it run hot.\\ \\ The programmable advance maps on the TC88A, and other modern ignition systems, allows timing curves to be altered at any RPM and any load. By trial and error the best map can be found. I didn't know about having all advance in at 3200rpm but that makes sense to me. I run about 32 deg advance but my compression is a little higher than most and compression slows burn time. | | One of the things that makes understanding timing difficult is that we're talking about 2 different time frames - crankshaft degrees for spark and real time combustion. We light the fire based on crankshaft degrees and engine load but actual burn time is in real time. To get optimal performance we need to light the fire early enough so it has just the right amount of real time to reach max cylinder pressure just after TDC - so it can expand and smoothly push the piston down, this is called MEP or Mean Effective Pressure.\\ \\ Typically, you want max pressure to occur about 7 degrees after TDC. Running too much advance starts the burn too early and max pressure happens at or before TDC, causing "​ping"​ (actually knock). Conversely, not enough advance to the spark causes max pressure to happen too late, producing less power and laboring the engine, making it run hot.\\ \\ The programmable advance maps on the TC88A, and other modern ignition systems, allows timing curves to be altered at any RPM and any load. By trial and error the best map can be found. I didn't know about having all advance in at 3200rpm but that makes sense to me. I run about 32 deg advance but my compression is a little higher than most and compression slows burn time. |
  
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 ===== Too Much Advance Timing? ===== ===== Too Much Advance Timing? =====
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 Quoting XLForum member, **ASWRacing**:​((http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1650461 Post#12))\\ Quoting XLForum member, **ASWRacing**:​((http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1650461 Post#12))\\
 **A Perspective by Aaron Wilson of Hammer Performance. (June 2013)**\\ **A Perspective by Aaron Wilson of Hammer Performance. (June 2013)**\\
-| I've dyno'​ed thousands of bikes over a long period of time, and on many many of them I've dialed in the timing during the process. Advanced it until the power dropped off, retarded it until the power dropped off, and then centered it in between those two locations. I've also played with curves a lot.\\ \\ **I'm here to tell you that too much timing most definitely costs power, and on the vast majority of bikes, the optimum timing is well below the threshold of ping. Running more timing than optimum makes your motor run hotter and puts the pistons at risk and the threshold of ping is a terrible place to put the timing on most bikes!**\\ \\ Most of these bikes, when they have reasonable compression and chamber turbulence (i.e. a squish band), will want their ignition timing set for about 28-30 degrees max advance at WOT. Going past that starts hurting power and making the motors run hot.\\ \\ When you do a performance build, you really should get an aftermarket ignition, because not only can you turn down the timing, you can bring the timing in more slowly. You almost always find power when you do that on a higher compression build! Most of the motors like it so slow that it's not all-in until 4500-5000rpm. On many ignitions, I've found the best power on the softest curve available. For example, the Dyna 2000 curve 4 almost always works the best if the bike under test has 10:1 compression or more. **On a Twin Tec TC88A I literally found the best power on my 04 883/1250 on initial 2 / slope 0.** That's the softest curve and almost the least amount of timing the module can give.\\ \\ Getting this notion out of people'​s heads that more timing = more power has always been a huge challenge in this business. When you're talking about a performance build, the exact opposite is almost always true. We have a vested interest in seeing our customers get this right, because we don't want complaints of scuffed or broken pistons, and that's exactly what will happen if you run the timing too high, sooner or later. |+| I've dyno'​ed thousands of bikes over a long period of time, and on many many of them I've dialed in the timing during the process. Advanced it until the power dropped off, retarded it until the power dropped off, and then centered it in between those two locations. I've also played with curves a lot.\\ \\ **I'm here to tell you that too much timing most definitely costs power, and on the vast majority of bikes, the optimum timing is well below the threshold of ping. Running more timing than optimum makes your motor run hotter and puts the pistons at risk and the threshold of ping is a terrible place to put the timing on most bikes!**\\ \\ Most of these bikes, when they have reasonable compression and chamber turbulence (i.e. a squish band), will want their ignition timing set for about 28-30 degrees max advance at WOT. Going past that starts hurting power and making the motors run hot.\\ \\ When you do a performance build, you really should get an aftermarket ignition, because not only can you turn down the timing, you can bring the timing in more slowly. You almost always find power when you do that on a higher compression build! Most of the motors like it so slow that it's not all-in until 4500-5000rpm. On many ignitions, I've found the best power on the softest curve available. For example, the Dyna 2000 curve 4 almost always works the best if the bike under test has 10:1 compression or more. On a Twin Tec TC88A I literally found the best power on my 04 883/1250 on initial 2 / slope 0. That's the softest curve and almost the least amount of timing the module can give.\\ \\ Getting this notion out of people'​s heads that more timing = more power has always been a huge challenge in this business. When you're talking about a performance build, the exact opposite is almost always true. We have a vested interest in seeing our customers get this right, because we don't want complaints of scuffed or broken pistons, and that's exactly what will happen if you run the timing too high, sooner or later. |
  
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