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techtalk:ref:engctl01 [2023/05/31 05:23]
ixl2relax [Programming the Ultima, Dyna & Dynatek Modules] 		techtalk:ref:engctl01 [2024/01/13 22:22]
hippysmack
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   * [[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01c|Some Sportster Ignition Modules Timing Curves]] ​   * [[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01c|Some Sportster Ignition Modules Timing Curves]] ​
 +
 +  * [[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01e|A Neat Timing Trick - Timing Light]] ​
  
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 ===== Why Adjust The Spark Timing? ===== ===== Why Adjust The Spark Timing? =====
  
-Quoting XLForum member, **RacerWill**:​((http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?t=1422868 Post#15))\\+Quoting XLForum member, **RacerWill**:​((https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-electrical/​sportster-motorcycle-electrical-and-ignition/​132778-daytona-tc88a-do-your-own-mapping-tips-questions?t=1422868+Post#15))\\
 | One of the things that makes understanding timing difficult is that we're talking about 2 different time frames - crankshaft degrees for spark and real time combustion. We light the fire based on crankshaft degrees and engine load but actual burn time is in real time. To get optimal performance we need to light the fire early enough so it has just the right amount of real time to reach max cylinder pressure just after TDC - so it can expand and smoothly push the piston down, this is called MEP or Mean Effective Pressure.\\ \\ Typically, you want max pressure to occur about 7 degrees after TDC. Running too much advance starts the burn too early and max pressure happens at or before TDC, causing "​ping"​ (actually knock). Conversely, not enough advance to the spark causes max pressure to happen too late, producing less power and laboring the engine, making it run hot.\\ \\ The programmable advance maps on the TC88A, and other modern ignition systems, allows timing curves to be altered at any RPM and any load. By trial and error the best map can be found. I didn't know about having all advance in at 3200rpm but that makes sense to me. I run about 32 deg advance but my compression is a little higher than most and compression slows burn time. | | One of the things that makes understanding timing difficult is that we're talking about 2 different time frames - crankshaft degrees for spark and real time combustion. We light the fire based on crankshaft degrees and engine load but actual burn time is in real time. To get optimal performance we need to light the fire early enough so it has just the right amount of real time to reach max cylinder pressure just after TDC - so it can expand and smoothly push the piston down, this is called MEP or Mean Effective Pressure.\\ \\ Typically, you want max pressure to occur about 7 degrees after TDC. Running too much advance starts the burn too early and max pressure happens at or before TDC, causing "​ping"​ (actually knock). Conversely, not enough advance to the spark causes max pressure to happen too late, producing less power and laboring the engine, making it run hot.\\ \\ The programmable advance maps on the TC88A, and other modern ignition systems, allows timing curves to be altered at any RPM and any load. By trial and error the best map can be found. I didn't know about having all advance in at 3200rpm but that makes sense to me. I run about 32 deg advance but my compression is a little higher than most and compression slows burn time. |
  
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 ===== Dynatek Dyna 2000i - Nosecone ICM ===== ===== Dynatek Dyna 2000i - Nosecone ICM =====
  
-The Dyna 2000i (D2Ki) is a self-contained ignition module meaning the timing sensors are built onto the timing plate, located in the '​nosecone'​. The timing rotor cup passes thru the sensors on the back of the timing plate to trigger the ignition module. While this module and the Ultima module are similar in installation & wiring, the selectable internal curve sets are different ([[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01#​ultima_-_nosecone_ignition_control_module|Ultima Module]]).+The Dyna 2000i (D2Ki-1p) is a self-contained ignition module meaning the timing sensors are built onto the timing plate, located in the '​nosecone'​. The timing rotor cup passes thru the sensors on the back of the timing plate to trigger the ignition module. While this module and the Ultima module are similar in installation & wiring, the selectable internal curve sets are different ([[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01#​ultima_-_nosecone_ignition_control_module|Ultima Module]]).
  
 | **Dyna 2000i Switch Options** - OFF(F) or ON(O)\\ \\ **Sw1 - Mode Selection**\\ F - Typical Setting - Used on most bikes\\ O - Retard Mode for Nitrous or Turbo engine\\ \\ **Sw2 & Sw3** - Choose Curve Selection (sets)\\ F / F - Adv Curve1 - Most Aggressive\\ O / F - Adv Curve2 - Near Stock\\ F / O - Adv Curve3 - Slower to reach max\\ O / O - Adv Curve4 - Least Aggressive\\ \\ Each curve set selection consists of two\\ internal curves controlled by the VOES:\\ One curve is VOES=ON for Idle/​Cruise\\ The other curve is VOES=OFF for WOT\\ \\ **Sw4 & Sw5** - Used as a set for RPM Limit\\ F / F - 6000 RPM for stock engine\\ O / F - 6500 RPM modified street engine\\ F / O - 7000 RPM race engine - be careful\\ O / O - 7500 RPM race engine - be careful\\ \\ **Sw6 - Coil Trigger Control**\\ F - Dual-Fire Coil Control - One Trigger Signal\\ O -- Single-Fire Coil Control - Two Separate Triggers | {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​dynatek-d2000i-module.jpg?​300|}}((Pic by jordan1200 - http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2069595))\\ \\ **RED LED - Status Indicator**\\ **--> Used to set Reference Timing at TDC**\\ At Power ON, should blink for 1/4 second\\ Rapid Blinking (Engine NOT Running) = a fault occured\\ Reset after faults - Turn power off for 1-2 seconds\\ Blinking (Engine Running) = Normal Coil Triggers\\ \\ **GREEN LED - VOES/RTD Indicator**\\ Indicates the status of the VOES/RTD input signal wire.\\ For VOES, when ON, the input signal line is grounded,\\ indicating use of the more Advanced Curve. | | **Dyna 2000i Switch Options** - OFF(F) or ON(O)\\ \\ **Sw1 - Mode Selection**\\ F - Typical Setting - Used on most bikes\\ O - Retard Mode for Nitrous or Turbo engine\\ \\ **Sw2 & Sw3** - Choose Curve Selection (sets)\\ F / F - Adv Curve1 - Most Aggressive\\ O / F - Adv Curve2 - Near Stock\\ F / O - Adv Curve3 - Slower to reach max\\ O / O - Adv Curve4 - Least Aggressive\\ \\ Each curve set selection consists of two\\ internal curves controlled by the VOES:\\ One curve is VOES=ON for Idle/​Cruise\\ The other curve is VOES=OFF for WOT\\ \\ **Sw4 & Sw5** - Used as a set for RPM Limit\\ F / F - 6000 RPM for stock engine\\ O / F - 6500 RPM modified street engine\\ F / O - 7000 RPM race engine - be careful\\ O / O - 7500 RPM race engine - be careful\\ \\ **Sw6 - Coil Trigger Control**\\ F - Dual-Fire Coil Control - One Trigger Signal\\ O -- Single-Fire Coil Control - Two Separate Triggers | {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​dynatek-d2000i-module.jpg?​300|}}((Pic by jordan1200 - http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2069595))\\ \\ **RED LED - Status Indicator**\\ **--> Used to set Reference Timing at TDC**\\ At Power ON, should blink for 1/4 second\\ Rapid Blinking (Engine NOT Running) = a fault occured\\ Reset after faults - Turn power off for 1-2 seconds\\ Blinking (Engine Running) = Normal Coil Triggers\\ \\ **GREEN LED - VOES/RTD Indicator**\\ Indicates the status of the VOES/RTD input signal wire.\\ For VOES, when ON, the input signal line is grounded,\\ indicating use of the more Advanced Curve. |
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 The Dyna 2000i unit triggers the coil primary circuit - either as a dual-fire system (two sparks per one trigger) or a single-fire system (two separate sparks by two separate trigger signals). The proper coil must be used to match either a dual-fire or single-fire system. The module also has an output for a tachometer and has an input for using a VOES (which is recommended for street bikes) to alter the spark timing during idle & cruising. ​ The Dyna 2000i unit triggers the coil primary circuit - either as a dual-fire system (two sparks per one trigger) or a single-fire system (two separate sparks by two separate trigger signals). The proper coil must be used to match either a dual-fire or single-fire system. The module also has an output for a tachometer and has an input for using a VOES (which is recommended for street bikes) to alter the spark timing during idle & cruising. ​
  
-The install instructions are here: Dyna 2000i [[https://​www.wwag.com/​step/​pdf/​123271.pdf|Installation Instructions (2801103 Rev. C version)]]\\+Product Information for the D2Ki-1p is [[https://​www.dynaonline.com/​dyna-2000i-performance-ignition-for-1970-1999-harley-davidson-carbureted-models-d2ki-1p/​|HERE]].\\ 
 +The install instructions ​(2801103 Rev. C version) from Dynatek ​are [[https://​www.dynaonline.com/​amfile/​file/​download/​file/​5852/​product/​4017/​|HERE]]. Also [[https://​www.wwag.com/​step/​pdf/​123271.pdf|HERE]]. Older install instructions are [[https://​files.ekmcdn.com/​dynojet/​resources/​other/​d2ki-1p.pdf|HERE]].\\
  
 You may want to read the discussion about the curves & VOES in this [[http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2079914|XLForum thread]]. You may want to read the discussion about the curves & VOES in this [[http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2079914|XLForum thread]].
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 An exmaple of using the D2Ki module to replace the 1998-2003 1200S ignition can be seen [[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01a|HERE]]. An exmaple of using the D2Ki module to replace the 1998-2003 1200S ignition can be seen [[techtalk:​ref:​engctl01a|HERE]].
  
-**NOTE:** In the Dyna FAQ, it says this:+**NOTE:** In the Dyna FAQ((https://​www.dynaonline.com/​faqs)), it says this:
  
 "Can I kick start my motor with the 2000i installed? How?\\ "Can I kick start my motor with the 2000i installed? How?\\
 ... Yes, but it will require reprogramming the dead revs back to zero (0). Out of the box, the 2000I has 3 dead revs like a stock Harley-Davidson System. This is also a benefit for high compression motors using an electric starter. The kick must not start on the compression stroke (sensor in the window on the cup). Stopping 'in the window'​ will execute the soft turn off. The leading AND trailing edges of the window must be seen by the 2000i to make a spark."​ ... Yes, but it will require reprogramming the dead revs back to zero (0). Out of the box, the 2000I has 3 dead revs like a stock Harley-Davidson System. This is also a benefit for high compression motors using an electric starter. The kick must not start on the compression stroke (sensor in the window on the cup). Stopping 'in the window'​ will execute the soft turn off. The leading AND trailing edges of the window must be seen by the 2000i to make a spark."​
  
-My assumption (only a guess) is that the 'soft turn off' of the module, when the sensor is 'in the window',​ is designed to prevent the coil from oversaturation from a constant grounded trigger signal. On a points system, oversaturation of the coil (burning it up) can occur if/when the keyswitch is on, the engine is not rotating and the coil is being energized by the points grounding the coil.+The 'soft turn off' of the module, when the sensor is 'in the window',​ is designed to prevent the coil from oversaturation from a constant grounded trigger signal. On a points system, oversaturation of the coil (burning it up) can occur if/when the keyswitch is on, the engine is not rotating and the coil is being energized by the points grounding the coil.
  
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 | **Ultima 53-644 Switch Options** - OFF(F) or ON(O)\\ \\ **Sw1 - Mode Selection**\\ F - Typical Setting - Used on most bikes\\ O - Retard Mode for Nitrous or Turbo engine\\ \\ **Sw2 & Sw3** - Used as a set for Curve Selection\\ F / F - Adv Curve1 - Most Aggressive - Fast/​HighestFinal\\ O / F - Adv Curve2\\ F / O - Adv Curve3\\ O / O - Adv Curve4 - Least Aggressive - Slow/​LowestFinal\\ \\ Each curve set selection consists of two\\ internal curves controlled by the VOES:\\ One curve is VOES=ON for Idle/​Cruise\\ The other curve is VOES=OFF for WOT\\ \\ **Sw4 & Sw5** - Used as a set for RPM Limit\\ F / F - 5500 RPM for Stock BT Engine\\ O / F - 6000 RPM Stock Sportster\\ F / O - 6500 RPM modified engine - be careful\\ O / O - 7000 RPM race engine - be careful\\ \\ **Sw6 - Coil Trigger Control**\\ F - Dual-Fire Coil Control - One Trigger Signal\\ O -- Single-Fire Coil Control - Two Separate Triggers\\ \\  | {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​ultima-53-644-ignition-module.jpg?​400|}}((Pics by Blowby & Static of the XLForum.net))\\ \\ **RED LED - Status Indicator**\\ **--> Used to set Reference Timing at TDC**\\ At Power ON, should blink for 1/4 second\\ Rapid Blinking (Engine NOT Running) = a fault occured\\ Reset after faults - Turn power off for 1-2 seconds\\ Blinking (Engine Running) = Normal Coil Triggers\\ \\ **GREEN LED - Status Indicator**\\ Indicates the status of the VOES/RTD input signal.\\ For VOES, when ON, the input signal line is grounded,\\ indicating use of the more Advanced Curve. | | **Ultima 53-644 Switch Options** - OFF(F) or ON(O)\\ \\ **Sw1 - Mode Selection**\\ F - Typical Setting - Used on most bikes\\ O - Retard Mode for Nitrous or Turbo engine\\ \\ **Sw2 & Sw3** - Used as a set for Curve Selection\\ F / F - Adv Curve1 - Most Aggressive - Fast/​HighestFinal\\ O / F - Adv Curve2\\ F / O - Adv Curve3\\ O / O - Adv Curve4 - Least Aggressive - Slow/​LowestFinal\\ \\ Each curve set selection consists of two\\ internal curves controlled by the VOES:\\ One curve is VOES=ON for Idle/​Cruise\\ The other curve is VOES=OFF for WOT\\ \\ **Sw4 & Sw5** - Used as a set for RPM Limit\\ F / F - 5500 RPM for Stock BT Engine\\ O / F - 6000 RPM Stock Sportster\\ F / O - 6500 RPM modified engine - be careful\\ O / O - 7000 RPM race engine - be careful\\ \\ **Sw6 - Coil Trigger Control**\\ F - Dual-Fire Coil Control - One Trigger Signal\\ O -- Single-Fire Coil Control - Two Separate Triggers\\ \\  | {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​ultima-53-644-ignition-module.jpg?​400|}}((Pics by Blowby & Static of the XLForum.net))\\ \\ **RED LED - Status Indicator**\\ **--> Used to set Reference Timing at TDC**\\ At Power ON, should blink for 1/4 second\\ Rapid Blinking (Engine NOT Running) = a fault occured\\ Reset after faults - Turn power off for 1-2 seconds\\ Blinking (Engine Running) = Normal Coil Triggers\\ \\ **GREEN LED - Status Indicator**\\ Indicates the status of the VOES/RTD input signal.\\ For VOES, when ON, the input signal line is grounded,\\ indicating use of the more Advanced Curve. |
 |  {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​ultima-53-644-wiring-df.jpg?​350|}} ​ |  {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​ultima-53-644-wiring-sf.jpg?​350|}} ​ | |  {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​ultima-53-644-wiring-df.jpg?​350|}} ​ |  {{:​techtalk:​ref:​engctl:​ultima-53-644-wiring-sf.jpg?​350|}} ​ |
 +\\
 +
 +**Discussions of Using the Ultima Module on Ironhead Sportsters (and Kick-Only)**
 +
 +Ultima offers (__as of 2023__) two versions of the 53-644 Ignition Module. The standard version has a 3-dead-rev programming to meet the needs of most EVO engines. This is reprogrammable as needed. It also offers a model 53-644K version which is supplied already programmed for 0-dead-revs for better starting on Kicker models.
 +
 +According to Ultima, the ignition module included in the ignition kit identified as 53-660 (which includes the module, proper coil, proper timing cup, spark plug wires & misc parts) has been pre-programmed to 0-dead-revs,​ which is compatible with kick-only Sportsters. It is a very complete conversion kit.((Jeff in Post#57 - http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2082634))
  
-For an example of an install, in this case on an Ironhead, see this thread: http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1747557+For an example of an install on an Ironhead, see this thread:\\ 
 +http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1747557
  
-Ultima offers two versions of the 53-644 Ignition Module. The standard version has a 3-dead-rev programming to meet the needs of most EVO engines. This is reprogrammable as needed. It also offers a model 53-644K version which is supplied already programmed for 0-dead-revs for better starting on Kicker models.+Other similar discussion threads about the Ultima module.\\ 
 +http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=1223921\\ 
 +http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=2082634\\
  
 \\ \\
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 Mfg Product Info - Website\\ Mfg Product Info - Website\\
-[[https://​www.dynaonline.com/​motorcycle-dyna-2000i/​|Dyna 2000i Product Information]] ​([[https://​files.ekmcdn.com/​dynojet/​resources/​other/​d2ki-1p.pdf|Instructions PDF]])\\+[[https://​www.dynaonline.com/​dyna-2000i-performance-ignition-for-1970-1999-harley-davidson-carbureted-models-d2ki-1p/|Dyna 2000i Product Information]]\\
 \\ \\
 [[https://​www.dynaonline.com/​accessories/​programming-kits/​|Various Programming Kits]] [[https://​www.dynaonline.com/​accessories/​programming-kits/​|Various Programming Kits]]

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