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techtalk:ref:engmech01q [2019/02/18 03:34] hippysmack [Jims lifters] |
techtalk:ref:engmech01q [2024/01/14 20:34] hippysmack |
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====== Lifter Comparisons ====== | ====== Lifter Comparisons ====== | ||
====== Tappet Flats ====== | ====== Tappet Flats ====== | ||
- | This is in consideration of induced noise from the use of high lift cams. \\ | + | **This is in consideration of induced noise from the use of high lift cams**. \\ |
- | The factory lifter is up to the job from the point of view of the hydraulics. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606&page=2)) \\ | + | The factory lifter is up to the job from the point of view of the hydraulics. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise/page2?t=1510606&page=2)) \\ |
However, the factory lifter's weaknesses are lack of available travel and less durable axle bearings. \\ | However, the factory lifter's weaknesses are lack of available travel and less durable axle bearings. \\ | ||
It's possible to machine the flat longer on a stock lifter. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341901)) \\ | It's possible to machine the flat longer on a stock lifter. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341901)) \\ | ||
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Which is why JIMS uses a bigger axle and more rollers and now they're force feeding oil to it. \\ | Which is why JIMS uses a bigger axle and more rollers and now they're force feeding oil to it. \\ | ||
- | On 91-05 bikes, the lifters were prevented from rotating via use of tappet "anti-rotation-pins" (which came in two different styles). ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606)) \\ | + | On 91-05 bikes, the lifters were prevented from rotating via use of tappet "anti-rotation-pins" (which came in two different styles). ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise?t=1510606)) \\ |
In 2006, they changed the design to a plastic "anti-rotaion-device" or ARD. \\ | In 2006, they changed the design to a plastic "anti-rotaion-device" or ARD. \\ | ||
- | One thing you need to pay attention to when using high lift cams is the tappet pin clearance. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=322680)) \\ | + | One thing you need to pay attention to when using high lift cams is the tappet pin clearance. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/59164-i-think-i-screwed-up-with-new-cam-install?t=322680)) ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/43338-base-circle-size?highlight=lifter+pins#post897331)) \\ |
- | A .590 lift cam on a stock base circle will cause the tappet to run into the pin. \\ | + | Without enough clearance, the tappet will contact the pin and make a racket. \\ |
+ | The generally accepted minimum clearance is .060": | ||
+ | (with the cam positioned at full lift, lifter sitting on top of it, use a magnet to pull the lifter up until it stops) \\ | ||
+ | You want it to move .060" at least. \\ | ||
+ | |||
+ | A .590" lift cam on a stock base circle will cause the tappet to run into the pin. \\ | ||
Maybe not on a roll-through, but almost certainly with the motor warm and running. \\ | Maybe not on a roll-through, but almost certainly with the motor warm and running. \\ | ||
If you get a lot of valve train noise, check it. Simply unscrew your pins and look for contact marks. \\ | If you get a lot of valve train noise, check it. Simply unscrew your pins and look for contact marks. \\ | ||
They tend to get a little smiley face impression on them when the tappets are hitting them. \\ | They tend to get a little smiley face impression on them when the tappets are hitting them. \\ | ||
- | The lifters can hit the pins with less lift than that. JIMS lifters have longer flats on the tappets. \\ | + | The lifters can hit the pins with less lift than that. \\ |
+ | Jims lifters have longer flats on the tappets, but roller failure has been reported while using them. \\ | ||
- | |Pin damage from lifter ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1647586))|Tappet and pin wear ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?page=2&t=1647586))| | + | |Pin damage from lifter ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/153000-bad-tappet-noise-from-high-lift-cams?t=1647586))|Tappet and pin wear ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/153000-bad-tappet-noise-from-high-lift-cams/page2?page=2&t=1647586))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:anti_rotation_screw_damage_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_and_pin_wear_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:anti_rotation_screw_damage_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_and_pin_wear_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
- | | Stock vs Jims lifter tappet flat comparison. ((photos by aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606)) ((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606)) ||Notice how the wear ring extends down below the \\ machined area of this S&S lifter a little. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4836812&highlight=lifter+pins#post4836812))| | + | | Stock vs Jims lifter tappet flat comparison. ((photos by aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise?t=1510606)) ||Notice how the wear ring extends down below the \\ machined area of this S&S lifter a little. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/164458-cannibal-queen-conversion-cam-carnage/page18?highlight=lifter+pins#post3513797))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:stock_vs_jims_tappet_flats_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_2_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_lifter_pin_wear_on_lifter_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:stock_vs_jims_tappet_flats_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_2_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_lifter_pin_wear_on_lifter_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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- | 91-05 lifter pins are only supported on the front side. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5254149&highlight=lifter+pins#post5254149)) \\ | + | 91-05 lifter pins are only supported on the front side. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/177032-a-tale-of-two-sporty-s-and-brand-new-dream-or-1250-was-fun-how-about-100/page3?highlight=lifter+pins#post3827139)) \\ |
The back side of the pin bore is not drilled through so the pin just kind of hangs there near the back wall of the bore. \\ | The back side of the pin bore is not drilled through so the pin just kind of hangs there near the back wall of the bore. \\ | ||
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You have to drill each hole deeper and then tap the outer portion to update to the new style. \\ | You have to drill each hole deeper and then tap the outer portion to update to the new style. \\ | ||
- | |91-05 vs 00-05 Up lifter pins ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606))|00-05 style pins in a 91-05 engine. ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341901))| | + | |91-05 vs 00-05 Up lifter pins ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise?t=1510606))|00-05 style pins in a 91-05 engine. ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/60421-what-kind-of-tappets-do-you-recommend?t=341901))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:91-05_tappet_pin_upgrade_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:91-05_tappet_pin_upgrade_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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===== OEM 2000 and Up vs SBC Lifters ===== | ===== OEM 2000 and Up vs SBC Lifters ===== | ||
- | Comparison of OEM 02 style Sportster lifter (18538-99A) and an aftermarket Crane Cams lifter (10530) for small block Chevy's. ((Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033)) \\ | + | Comparison of OEM 02 style Sportster lifter (18538-99A) and an aftermarket Crane Cams lifter (10530) for small block Chevy's. ((Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033)) \\ |
From left to right you can see the retaining clip, pushrod seat, piddle valve, plunger / spring, and lifter body. \\ | From left to right you can see the retaining clip, pushrod seat, piddle valve, plunger / spring, and lifter body. \\ | ||
- | The way these parts work is both simple and complex. For a better description, see [[techtalk:evo:oil01a#lifter_oiling|how a hydraulic lifter works]] in the Sportsterpedia. \\ | + | The way these parts work is both simple and complex. For a better description, see [[techtalk:evo:oil01#lifter_oiling|how a hydraulic lifter works]] in the Sportsterpedia. \\ |
The plunger is inserted into the lifter body, where the clearance is .0002" or so. \\ | The plunger is inserted into the lifter body, where the clearance is .0002" or so. \\ | ||
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The bleed down rate is controlled by plunger-to-body clearance. \\ | The bleed down rate is controlled by plunger-to-body clearance. \\ | ||
- | |Lifter (18538-99A) from an 02 XL883 ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033))|Crane Cams 10530 SBC Lifter ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033))|Crane on left, HD "A" on right. ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033))| | + | |Lifter (18538-99A) from an 02 XL883 ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033))|Crane Cams 10530 SBC Lifter ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033))|Crane on left, HD "A" on right. ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033))| |
|{{:techtalk:evo:engmech:02_lifter_1_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:crane_cams_10530_sbc_lifter_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:02_lifter_-_crane_cams_lifter_comparison_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:evo:engmech:02_lifter_1_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:crane_cams_10530_sbc_lifter_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:02_lifter_-_crane_cams_lifter_comparison_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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This is a critical measurement when installing high lift cams. \\ | This is a critical measurement when installing high lift cams. \\ | ||
Otherwise, on stock motors, it shouldn't be necessary unless you have a lifter fail. And then, replacing with stock lifters should be fine. \\ | Otherwise, on stock motors, it shouldn't be necessary unless you have a lifter fail. And then, replacing with stock lifters should be fine. \\ | ||
- | As an example, the Buell XBRR uses the stock lifters and it spins 9000rpm. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters&page=2)) \\ | + | As an example, the Buell XBRR uses the stock lifters and it spins 9000rpm. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/179904-s-s-hl2t-and-jims-hydrosolid-question/page2?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters&page=2)) \\ |
- | High performance lifters are especially helpful as a piece of preventative maintenance when high spring pressures are used. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055&p=4726240)) \\ | + | High performance lifters are especially helpful as a piece of preventative maintenance when high spring pressures are used. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/160789-gaterman-lifters-now-available-from-hammer-performance?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055#post3437771)) \\ |
The longer flats also allow higher lifts. | The longer flats also allow higher lifts. | ||
===== Other Useful Links ===== | ===== Other Useful Links ===== | ||
- | This is a very good XLFORUM discussion thread on [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters|lifters and high lift cams]]. \\ | + | This is a very good XLFORUM discussion thread on [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/179904-s-s-hl2t-and-jims-hydrosolid-question?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters|lifters and high lift cams]]. \\ |
===== Feuling lifters ===== | ===== Feuling lifters ===== | ||
+ | \\ | ||
===== Gaterman Lifters ===== | ===== Gaterman Lifters ===== | ||
- | Four different models are available for XL's. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055&p=4726240)) \\ | + | Four different models are available for XL's. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/160789-gaterman-lifters-now-available-from-hammer-performance?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055#post3437771)) \\ |
Common features include: \\ | Common features include: \\ | ||
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===== Jims lifters ===== | ===== Jims lifters ===== | ||
- | |The JIMS lifters have the machined area up higher as \\ compared to the stock lifters. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4836812&highlight=lifter+pins#post4836812))| | + | |The JIMS lifters have the machined area up higher as \\ compared to the stock lifters. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/164458-cannibal-queen-conversion-cam-carnage/page18?highlight=lifter+pins#post3513797))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:jims_ve_stock_lifters_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:jims_ve_stock_lifters_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
===== S&S Lifters ===== | ===== S&S Lifters ===== | ||
- | + | | S&S (33-5350) lifters ((photos by rubine of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/186414-s-s-lifter-identification-help?t=1993359)) ||| | |
- | | S&S (33-5350) lifters ((photos by rubine of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1993359)) ||| | + | |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_2_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_3_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_4_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_2_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_3_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_4_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||