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techtalk:ref:engmech01q [2019/02/18 17:07] hippysmack [Roller end manuf. defect repair] |
techtalk:ref:engmech01q [2024/01/14 20:34] (current) hippysmack |
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====== Tappet Flats ====== | ====== Tappet Flats ====== | ||
**This is in consideration of induced noise from the use of high lift cams**. \\ | **This is in consideration of induced noise from the use of high lift cams**. \\ | ||
- | The factory lifter is up to the job from the point of view of the hydraulics. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606&page=2)) \\ | + | The factory lifter is up to the job from the point of view of the hydraulics. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise/page2?t=1510606&page=2)) \\ |
However, the factory lifter's weaknesses are lack of available travel and less durable axle bearings. \\ | However, the factory lifter's weaknesses are lack of available travel and less durable axle bearings. \\ | ||
It's possible to machine the flat longer on a stock lifter. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341901)) \\ | It's possible to machine the flat longer on a stock lifter. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341901)) \\ | ||
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Which is why JIMS uses a bigger axle and more rollers and now they're force feeding oil to it. \\ | Which is why JIMS uses a bigger axle and more rollers and now they're force feeding oil to it. \\ | ||
- | On 91-05 bikes, the lifters were prevented from rotating via use of tappet "anti-rotation-pins" (which came in two different styles). ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606)) \\ | + | On 91-05 bikes, the lifters were prevented from rotating via use of tappet "anti-rotation-pins" (which came in two different styles). ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise?t=1510606)) \\ |
In 2006, they changed the design to a plastic "anti-rotaion-device" or ARD. \\ | In 2006, they changed the design to a plastic "anti-rotaion-device" or ARD. \\ | ||
- | One thing you need to pay attention to when using high lift cams is the tappet pin clearance. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=322680)) ((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1011178&highlight=lifter+pins#post1011178)) \\ | + | One thing you need to pay attention to when using high lift cams is the tappet pin clearance. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/59164-i-think-i-screwed-up-with-new-cam-install?t=322680)) ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/43338-base-circle-size?highlight=lifter+pins#post897331)) \\ |
Without enough clearance, the tappet will contact the pin and make a racket. \\ | Without enough clearance, the tappet will contact the pin and make a racket. \\ | ||
The generally accepted minimum clearance is .060": | The generally accepted minimum clearance is .060": | ||
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Jims lifters have longer flats on the tappets, but roller failure has been reported while using them. \\ | Jims lifters have longer flats on the tappets, but roller failure has been reported while using them. \\ | ||
- | |Pin damage from lifter ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1647586))|Tappet and pin wear ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?page=2&t=1647586))| | + | |Pin damage from lifter ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/153000-bad-tappet-noise-from-high-lift-cams?t=1647586))|Tappet and pin wear ((photo by groovemeisterus of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/153000-bad-tappet-noise-from-high-lift-cams/page2?page=2&t=1647586))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:anti_rotation_screw_damage_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_and_pin_wear_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:anti_rotation_screw_damage_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_and_pin_wear_by_groovemeisterus.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
- | | Stock vs Jims lifter tappet flat comparison. ((photos by aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606)) ((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606)) ||Notice how the wear ring extends down below the \\ machined area of this S&S lifter a little. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4836812&highlight=lifter+pins#post4836812))| | + | | Stock vs Jims lifter tappet flat comparison. ((photos by aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise?t=1510606)) ||Notice how the wear ring extends down below the \\ machined area of this S&S lifter a little. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/164458-cannibal-queen-conversion-cam-carnage/page18?highlight=lifter+pins#post3513797))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:stock_vs_jims_tappet_flats_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_2_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_lifter_pin_wear_on_lifter_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:stock_vs_jims_tappet_flats_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_2_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_lifter_pin_wear_on_lifter_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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- | 91-05 lifter pins are only supported on the front side. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5254149&highlight=lifter+pins#post5254149)) \\ | + | 91-05 lifter pins are only supported on the front side. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/177032-a-tale-of-two-sporty-s-and-brand-new-dream-or-1250-was-fun-how-about-100/page3?highlight=lifter+pins#post3827139)) \\ |
The back side of the pin bore is not drilled through so the pin just kind of hangs there near the back wall of the bore. \\ | The back side of the pin bore is not drilled through so the pin just kind of hangs there near the back wall of the bore. \\ | ||
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You have to drill each hole deeper and then tap the outer portion to update to the new style. \\ | You have to drill each hole deeper and then tap the outer portion to update to the new style. \\ | ||
- | |91-05 vs 00-05 Up lifter pins ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1510606))|00-05 style pins in a 91-05 engine. ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341901))| | + | |91-05 vs 00-05 Up lifter pins ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/139198-well-been-doing-some-thinking-excess-valvetrain-noise?t=1510606))|00-05 style pins in a 91-05 engine. ((photo by aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/60421-what-kind-of-tappets-do-you-recommend?t=341901))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:91-05_tappet_pin_upgrade_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:tappet_pin_comparison_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:91-05_tappet_pin_upgrade_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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===== OEM 2000 and Up vs SBC Lifters ===== | ===== OEM 2000 and Up vs SBC Lifters ===== | ||
- | Comparison of OEM 02 style Sportster lifter (18538-99A) and an aftermarket Crane Cams lifter (10530) for small block Chevy's. ((Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033)) \\ | + | Comparison of OEM 02 style Sportster lifter (18538-99A) and an aftermarket Crane Cams lifter (10530) for small block Chevy's. ((Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033)) \\ |
From left to right you can see the retaining clip, pushrod seat, piddle valve, plunger / spring, and lifter body. \\ | From left to right you can see the retaining clip, pushrod seat, piddle valve, plunger / spring, and lifter body. \\ | ||
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The bleed down rate is controlled by plunger-to-body clearance. \\ | The bleed down rate is controlled by plunger-to-body clearance. \\ | ||
- | |Lifter (18538-99A) from an 02 XL883 ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033))|Crane Cams 10530 SBC Lifter ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033))|Crane on left, HD "A" on right. ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1706033))| | + | |Lifter (18538-99A) from an 02 XL883 ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033))|Crane Cams 10530 SBC Lifter ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033))|Crane on left, HD "A" on right. ((photo by Scuba10jdl of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/159217-lifters-comparison?t=1706033))| |
|{{:techtalk:evo:engmech:02_lifter_1_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:crane_cams_10530_sbc_lifter_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:02_lifter_-_crane_cams_lifter_comparison_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:evo:engmech:02_lifter_1_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:crane_cams_10530_sbc_lifter_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:02_lifter_-_crane_cams_lifter_comparison_by_scuba10jdl.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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This is a critical measurement when installing high lift cams. \\ | This is a critical measurement when installing high lift cams. \\ | ||
Otherwise, on stock motors, it shouldn't be necessary unless you have a lifter fail. And then, replacing with stock lifters should be fine. \\ | Otherwise, on stock motors, it shouldn't be necessary unless you have a lifter fail. And then, replacing with stock lifters should be fine. \\ | ||
- | As an example, the Buell XBRR uses the stock lifters and it spins 9000rpm. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters&page=2)) \\ | + | As an example, the Buell XBRR uses the stock lifters and it spins 9000rpm. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/179904-s-s-hl2t-and-jims-hydrosolid-question/page2?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters&page=2)) \\ |
- | High performance lifters are especially helpful as a piece of preventative maintenance when high spring pressures are used. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055&p=4726240)) \\ | + | High performance lifters are especially helpful as a piece of preventative maintenance when high spring pressures are used. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/160789-gaterman-lifters-now-available-from-hammer-performance?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055#post3437771)) \\ |
The longer flats also allow higher lifts. | The longer flats also allow higher lifts. | ||
- | |||
- | ===== Roller end manuf. defect repair ===== | ||
- | It seems aftermarket lifters have a tendency to be wide at the roller end (at the opposite pins holding the roller). \\ | ||
- | Measure them before installing to be sure they won't scratch the lifter bore when turned home. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5283285&highlight=lifter+pins#post5283285)) \\ | ||
- | The Fueling lifters below had this problem. \\ | ||
- | The company (when contacted) said they would replace them but with concerns of receiving the same issue with replacements, these were resized at the base. \\ | ||
- | |||
- | The lifter has to be installed in the top facing the flats toward the engine or it hangs up on the cylinder fins. \\ | ||
- | Once down past the fins, you have to turn them 90 degrees to get the anti-rotation pins in. \\ | ||
- | The lifter was cutting into the bore while installing them and turning them sideways. \\ | ||
- | The extruding sides were cutting on the opposite ends of the roller caps and gathering aluminum shavings in the pin hole recesses. \\ | ||
- | |||
- | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_2_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_3_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
- | |||
- | Upon measuring, the main body on this particular set of Fueling lifters were .903" on the main body with the roller end being .9035". \\ | ||
- | When the lifter roller pins (or pin caps) were pressed in, this process apparently warped out both opposite sides of the barrel ends. \\ | ||
- | This is similar to squeezing the top of a paper cup. The factory clearance is .0008"-.0020" and out of service limit at .0030" \\ | ||
- | The distance from side to side opposite the roller pin sides had a diameter of .0005" more than the main body. \\ | ||
- | The extruding part of the lifter base acted as a cutter on the lifter bore. \\ | ||
- | They were chucked in a lathe, filed and lightly polished with medium grit sandpaper which brought them down to .903" all around the base. \\ | ||
- | The file was raised up slightly so only the extruding side ends would graze the file. \\ | ||
- | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_4_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_5_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_6_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
- | |||
- | 91-Up lifters are not in replaceable lifter blocks. So wear in the bore is critical. \\ | ||
- | The FSM says since this model has no tappet bushing, the only way to fix 'out of service bores' are bigger tappets or a new case. \\ | ||
- | So the bore was honed slightly to remove the bulk of the scratches made by the oversized lifter end. \\ | ||
- | |||
- | The hone was made from a ball hone with the balls removed and 400 grit sandpaper Gorilla glued to the shaft. \\ | ||
- | To keep center on the hone, a bushing was cut on the lathe with a slip fit hole small enough to accept the wire handle. \\ | ||
- | |The bores are slanted toward the pushrod cup \\ of each rocker arm.| Homemade hone to lightly clean up the lifter bore. || | ||
- | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_8_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_7_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_11_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
- | |||
- | The hone was turned by hand for app. 10 turns (while holding the bushing in place) per lifter bore to clean up the scratches. \\ | ||
- | Due to the slanted bores, the bushing was raised slightly while honing. \\ | ||
- | |||
- | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_9_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_10_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sizing_a_fueling_lifter_base_12_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
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- | \\ | ||
===== Other Useful Links ===== | ===== Other Useful Links ===== | ||
- | This is a very good XLFORUM discussion thread on [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters|lifters and high lift cams]]. \\ | + | This is a very good XLFORUM discussion thread on [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/179904-s-s-hl2t-and-jims-hydrosolid-question?t=1933342&highlight=disassembling+lifters|lifters and high lift cams]]. \\ |
===== Feuling lifters ===== | ===== Feuling lifters ===== | ||
- | + | \\ | |
- | + | ||
===== Gaterman Lifters ===== | ===== Gaterman Lifters ===== | ||
- | Four different models are available for XL's. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055&p=4726240)) \\ | + | Four different models are available for XL's. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/vendors/hammer-performance/160789-gaterman-lifters-now-available-from-hammer-performance?s=73d24db8f0756ef41c6215fd92ad0055#post3437771)) \\ |
Common features include: \\ | Common features include: \\ | ||
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===== Jims lifters ===== | ===== Jims lifters ===== | ||
- | |The JIMS lifters have the machined area up higher as \\ compared to the stock lifters. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4836812&highlight=lifter+pins#post4836812))| | + | |The JIMS lifters have the machined area up higher as \\ compared to the stock lifters. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/164458-cannibal-queen-conversion-cam-carnage/page18?highlight=lifter+pins#post3513797))| |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:jims_ve_stock_lifters_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:jims_ve_stock_lifters_by_aswracing.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
===== S&S Lifters ===== | ===== S&S Lifters ===== | ||
- | + | | S&S (33-5350) lifters ((photos by rubine of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/186414-s-s-lifter-identification-help?t=1993359)) ||| | |
- | | S&S (33-5350) lifters ((photos by rubine of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1993359)) ||| | + | |
|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_2_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_3_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_4_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_2_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_3_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:sands_33-5350_tappets_4_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||