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techtalk:ref:oil05f [2019/05/23 05:43] hippysmack [07 Up Oil Pump Mod For Use in 86-90 Engines] |
techtalk:ref:oil05f [2023/12/23 01:28] (current) hippysmack |
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| [[:techtalk:menu|{{ :techtalk:gototechnicalmenu.jpg|}}]] | [[:techtalk:menu|{{ :techtalk:gototechnicalmenu.jpg|}}]] | ||
| ====== REF: Oiling & Lubrication - Sub-05F ====== | ====== REF: Oiling & Lubrication - Sub-05F ====== | ||
| - | ====== 07 Up Oil Pump Mod For Use in 86-90 Engines ====== | + | ====== Modding a 98-up style Oil Pump For Use in 86-90 Engines ====== |
| Related articles in the Evo section of the Sportsterpedia: \\ | Related articles in the Evo section of the Sportsterpedia: \\ | ||
| ........ * [[techtalk:evo:oil01|Engine Oil System]] \\ | ........ * [[techtalk:evo:oil01|Engine Oil System]] \\ | ||
| Line 9: | Line 9: | ||
| ---- | ---- | ||
| - | Karling Racing designed this mod after flow testing a 2007-up Sportster oil pump for use in an 86-90 engine. ((Jorgen of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1619616&page=42)) ((https://www.karlingracing.com/sv)) \\ | + | Karling Racing in Sweden designed this mod after flow testing a 2007-up Sportster oil pump for use in an 86-90 engine. ((Jorgen of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/149281-124-1993-xlh-build-thread/page42?t=1619616&page=42)) ((https://www.karlingracing.com/sv)) \\ |
| - | | Karling Racing's oil pump mod for 07-up oil pumps. ((photo by Jorgen of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1619616&page=42)) | | + | | Karling Racing's oil pump mod for 07-up oil pumps. ((photo by Jorgen of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/149281-124-1993-xlh-build-thread/page42?t=1619616&page=42)) | Another Karling modded oil pump ((photo by Rubine of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-styles/sportster-motorcycle-project/173419-88ci-sport-rod/page10?t=1861960&page=10)) | |
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:oil:karling_racing_07_oil_pump_mod_by_jorgen.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{:techtalk:ref:oil:karling_racing_07_oil_pump_mod_by_jorgen.jpg?direct&300|}}| {{techtalk:ref:oil:karling_modded_07_oil_pump_by_rubine.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| - | ====== Applications for this mod ====== | + | Contact: \\ |
| + | [[http://www.karlingracing.com/index.html|Karling Racing.com]] \\ | ||
| + | Telephone +46(8)51400488 \\ | ||
| + | E-mail: sale@karlingracing.com \\ | ||
| + | ====== Applications for this mod ====== | ||
| __This oil pump modification is only suitable in engines where you want to maximize crankcase sump scavenging__. \\ | __This oil pump modification is only suitable in engines where you want to maximize crankcase sump scavenging__. \\ | ||
| - | It was originally designed with a 124" S&S motor in mind. [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1619616|The Xlforum build thread is here]]. \\ | + | It was originally designed with a 124" S&S motor in mind. [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/149281-124-1993-xlh-build-thread?t=1619616|The Xlforum build thread is here]]. \\ |
| A Karling modified 2007-and-up oil pump may be an improvement in Sportster Evo engines with pre-98 H-D OEM cases. \\ | A Karling modified 2007-and-up oil pump may be an improvement in Sportster Evo engines with pre-98 H-D OEM cases. \\ | ||
| These engines were not made to scavenge from the cam chest either. They have the oil drain from the cam chest to the sump. \\ | These engines were not made to scavenge from the cam chest either. They have the oil drain from the cam chest to the sump. \\ | ||
| Line 28: | Line 32: | ||
| ====== Background ====== | ====== Background ====== | ||
| - | |||
| Previously, most engine builders fitted 4-cam race engines with ProFlow 3-stage or 4-stage oil pumps. \\ | Previously, most engine builders fitted 4-cam race engines with ProFlow 3-stage or 4-stage oil pumps. \\ | ||
| Since those pumps are now discontinued, engine builders (Karling and others) often use these OEM pumps for; \\ | Since those pumps are now discontinued, engine builders (Karling and others) often use these OEM pumps for; \\ | ||
| Line 50: | Line 53: | ||
| (increased the oil flow capacity even further) \\ | (increased the oil flow capacity even further) \\ | ||
| - | ===== Cam chest drainage ===== | + | ==== Cam chest drainage ==== |
| Notice the differences in the 86-90 and 91-up cam chest floor. \\ | Notice the differences in the 86-90 and 91-up cam chest floor. \\ | ||
| The elevation is stepped down from left to right on both cases. \\ | The elevation is stepped down from left to right on both cases. \\ | ||
| Line 73: | Line 75: | ||
| Click here to see [[techtalk:evo:oil01#oil_passages_from_the_filter_pad|Evo cam chests from different year models]] in the Sportsterpedia. | Click here to see [[techtalk:evo:oil01#oil_passages_from_the_filter_pad|Evo cam chests from different year models]] in the Sportsterpedia. | ||
| - | | S&S cam chest drain ((photo by Jorgen of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1619616&page=45 )) | 86-97 cam chest drains to crankcase sump \\ (86-90 engine shown). ((photo by Mini_blitz of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1974615&page=3)) | 98-up cam chest drains into the oil pump. \\ (98 engine shown) ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | + | | S&S cam chest drain ((photo by Jorgen of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/149281-124-1993-xlh-build-thread/page45?t=1619616&page=45)) | 86-97 cam chest drains to crankcase sump \\ (86-90 engine shown). ((photo by Mini_blitz of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-bottom-end/183493-1986-evolution-sportster-cam-cover-install-help/page3?t=1974615&page=3)) | 98-up cam chest drains into the oil pump. \\ (98 engine shown) ((photo by Hippysmack)) | |
| |{{:techtalk:ref:oil:sands_cam_chest_by_jorgen.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:86-90_engine_scavenging_by_mini_blitz.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:91-99_cam_cover_gasket_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:ref:oil:sands_cam_chest_by_jorgen.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:86-90_engine_scavenging_by_mini_blitz.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:91-99_cam_cover_gasket_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
| - | ===== Sportster oil pumps ===== | + | ==== Sportster oil pumps ==== |
| The design of the oil pumps changed with the different oiling system changes to the engines. \\ | The design of the oil pumps changed with the different oiling system changes to the engines. \\ | ||
| + | You can see the runners on the top of the 98-up pumps leading to the cam chest drain port. \\ | ||
| - | | 86-90 Oil Pump Oiling Paths. ((photo by Hippysmack)) | 91-97 Oil Pump Oiling Paths ((photo by Hippysmack)) | 98 and Up Oil Pump Oiling Paths ((photo by bsaman of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=691283&page=2)) | | + | | 86-90 Oil Pump Oiling Paths. ((photo by Hippysmack)) | 91-97 Oil Pump Oiling Paths ((photo by Hippysmack)) | 98 and Up Oil Pump Oiling Paths ((photo by bsaman of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/rubber-mount-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2004-2006/87615-crank-replacement-documentation/page2?t=691283&page=2)) | |
| |{{:techtalk:evo:oil:86-90_oil_pump_oiling_paths_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:91-97_oil_pump_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:98-up_oil_pump_oiling_paths_by_bsaman.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:evo:oil:86-90_oil_pump_oiling_paths_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:91-97_oil_pump_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:98-up_oil_pump_oiling_paths_by_bsaman.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
| + | ==== Reason this mod came to be ==== | ||
| + | During the 124" build, a 2007-up Sportster oil pump was installed. \\ | ||
| + | Upon dyno testing, it was revealed that there was a reduction in max power and torque pointing wetsumping at high RPM. \\ | ||
| + | Tests were also done running the bike at different rpms, then stopping the engine to drain and measure the volume of oil in the sump. \\ | ||
| + | These test also pointed to at wetsumping. \\ | ||
| + | Then, suspected culprit was the oil pump. The modern (1998-up) H-D oil pumps have a suction port in the cam chest. \\ | ||
| - | ====== Considerations ====== | + | But unlike modern H-D cases, the S&S cases drain the cam chest to the crankcase sump. \\ |
| + | And that drain hole is situated at a lower point in the cam chest than the cam chest suction port to the oil pump. \\ | ||
| + | Then it was thought that the camchest suction port in the oil pump only delivers air into the oil return gerotor in this application. \\ | ||
| + | (thereby lowering the possible return flowrate from the sump) \\ | ||
| + | So the idea came about to close off the front drain port in the 2007 oil pump. \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | ==== Testing ==== | ||
| + | 1986-1997 engines drain the gearcase into the crankcase sump area to be scavenged by the sump drain to the oil pump. \\ | ||
| + | 1998-up engines drain the gearcase straight into the oil pump. \\ | ||
| + | However, the 07 pump is preferred as it has bigger scavenge gerotors that carry more oil out of the engine than it's predecessor. \\ | ||
| + | So testing was done on the 2007 pump to determine flow rate. \\ | ||
| + | The pump was tested before and after the modification in Karlings oil pump test rig. \\ | ||
| + | During the flow test, they used a reference volume filled from the scavenge outlet. \\ | ||
| + | The pump was driven at a controlled shaft speed and partially immersed in a low viscosity fluid to resemble the viscosity of hot engine oil. \\ | ||
| + | When the cam chest suction port was allowed to suck air, (sump suction port immersed in liquid), the pump needed 22 seconds to fill the reference volume. \\ | ||
| + | With this mod, (also the internal gerotor kidney was machined to optimize sump port scavenge capacity), pump only needed 13.5 seconds to fill the reference volume. \\ | ||
| + | The testing determined that the 2007 oil pump gained 63% scavenge capacity when the oil pumps cam chest scavenge port was modified (blocked off). \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | Then the plausible consequence (without modding) was that the engine wetsumps the crankcase to a level that is sufficient to flood the lower part of the cam chest. \\ | ||
| + | Not until then will the full oil pump scavenge capacity be used. \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====== Considerations ====== | ||
| This mod may improve scavenging of the crankcase sump but it is not the end of wet sumping in the engine. \\ | This mod may improve scavenging of the crankcase sump but it is not the end of wet sumping in the engine. \\ | ||
| - | 86-91 engines have an [[techtalk:evo:oil01#oil_pressure_regulator_-_1986-1991_models_only|oil pressure regulator]] that dumps excess oil pressure from the filter pad directly into the gearcase. \\ | + | 1986-1991 engines have an [[techtalk:evo:oil01#oil_pressure_regulator_-_1986-1991_models_only|oil pressure regulator]] that dumps excess oil pressure from the filter pad directly into the gearcase. \\ |
| When the regulator malfunctions, additional oil is dumped into the gearcase more often and at varying riding conditions. \\ | When the regulator malfunctions, additional oil is dumped into the gearcase more often and at varying riding conditions. \\ | ||
| Read more about [[techtalk:ref:oil05e#oil_pressure_regulator|Oil Pressure Regulator Mods]] in the REF section of the Sportsterpedia. \\ | Read more about [[techtalk:ref:oil05e#oil_pressure_regulator|Oil Pressure Regulator Mods]] in the REF section of the Sportsterpedia. \\ | ||
| ====== Purpose of this mod ====== | ====== Purpose of this mod ====== | ||
| - | |||
| Several mods have been devised in an attempt to scavenge more oil from 86-90 engines. \\ | Several mods have been devised in an attempt to scavenge more oil from 86-90 engines. \\ | ||
| One of which is the [[techtalk:evo:oil03c|5 Speed Oil Pump on 4 Speed Models (Conversion for 86-90 Evo engines)]] \\ | One of which is the [[techtalk:evo:oil03c|5 Speed Oil Pump on 4 Speed Models (Conversion for 86-90 Evo engines)]] \\ | ||
| - | (adapting the engine case to accept a newer style oil pump to an 86-90 engine for better oil control) \\ | + | (adapting the engine case to accept a newer style oil pump to an 1986-1990 engine for better oil control) \\ |
| - | This mod addresses the issue of the cam chest drain port in the newer style pumps that is not required in 86-96 engines. \\ | + | This mod addresses the issue of the cam chest drain port in the newer style pumps that is not required in 1986-1996 engines. \\ |
| - | When using 98-up oil pumps for earlier engines: \\ | + | When using 1998-up oil pumps for earlier engines: \\ |
| - | The concern is since the early engine drains the gearcase into the sump and the 07 pump has an open port in the cam chest; \\ | + | The concern is since the early engine drains the gearcase into the sump and the 2007 pump has an open port in the cam chest; \\ |
| - | You may be adding more aeration into the return system through the gearcase port in the pump. \\ | + | You may be adding more air/aeration into the return system through the gearcase port in the pump. \\ |
| - | (which may lead to an increased risk of cavitation) ((Four Speed of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1971026&page=25)) \\ | + | (which may lead to an increased risk of cavitation) ((Four Speed of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/frame-mount-evo-sportster-talk-1986-2003-models/183021-1986-90-evo-sportsters-what-every-owner-should-know-but-were-afraid-to-ask/page25?t=1971026&page=25)) \\ |
| **98-up oil pump gearcase drain ports**: \\ | **98-up oil pump gearcase drain ports**: \\ | ||
| Line 115: | Line 143: | ||
| |The cam chest drain port is the middle thru hole in \\ this pic (07 pump shown). ((photo by Hippysmack))|As the gerotors reside over the cavities, both pieces \\ rotate together. The relative openings between \\ gears stays the same ((photo by Hippysmack))| | |The cam chest drain port is the middle thru hole in \\ this pic (07 pump shown). ((photo by Hippysmack))|As the gerotors reside over the cavities, both pieces \\ rotate together. The relative openings between \\ gears stays the same ((photo by Hippysmack))| | ||
| |{{:techtalk:evo:oil:2007_and_up_oil_pump_2_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:2007_and_up_oil_pump_5a_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | |{{:techtalk:evo:oil:2007_and_up_oil_pump_2_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:oil:2007_and_up_oil_pump_5a_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | ||
| - | |||
| - | ====== Testing ====== | ||
| - | |||
| - | The reason for testing was due to the 07-up pump having a drain port (on top of the pump body) to drain the gearcase. \\ | ||
| - | 86-97 engines drain the gearcase into the crankcase sump area to be scavenged by the sump drain to the oil pump. \\ | ||
| - | 98-up engines drain the gearcase straight into the oil pump. \\ | ||
| - | However, the 07 pump is preferred as it has bigger scavenge gerotors that carry more oil out of the engine than it's predecessor. \\ | ||
| - | |||
| - | The pump was tested before and after the modification in Karlings oil pump test rig. \\ | ||
| - | |||
| - | During the flow test they used a reference volume filled from the scavenge outlet. \\ | ||
| - | The pump was driven at a controlled shaft speed and partially immersed in a low viscosity fluid to resemble the viscosity of hot engine oil. \\ | ||
| ====== Results ====== | ====== Results ====== | ||
| - | + | When the gearcase port was allowed to suck air with the sump port immersed in liquid, the pump needed 22 seconds to fill the reference volume. ((Jorgen of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/149281-124-1993-xlh-build-thread/page43?t=1619616&page=43)) \\ | |
| - | When the gearcase port was allowed to suck air with the sump port immersed in liquid, the pump needed 22 seconds to fill the reference volume. ((Jorgen of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1619616&page=43)) \\ | + | |
| With the cam chest port blocked off and the internal gerotor kidney machined to optimize sump port scavenge capacity; \\ | With the cam chest port blocked off and the internal gerotor kidney machined to optimize sump port scavenge capacity; \\ | ||
| The pump only needed 13.5 seconds to fill the reference volume. \\ | The pump only needed 13.5 seconds to fill the reference volume. \\ | ||
| Line 136: | Line 151: | ||
| ====== Conclusions from testing ====== | ====== Conclusions from testing ====== | ||
| - | |||
| The results reportedly revealed that this modification increases the return flow from the sump by 63%. \\ | The results reportedly revealed that this modification increases the return flow from the sump by 63%. \\ | ||
| - | This shows how much return capacity that is left on the table; \\ | + | This shows how much return capacity that is left on the table using the 2007 pump (if there's no oil in the cam chest to fall into the top port). \\ |
| - | When a newer style OEM pump with a cam chest suction port is installed in XL-cases that has the cam chest drain port to the sump. \\ | + | |
| - | + | ||
| - | If these 1998-and-up OEM pumps are installed in an XL-pattern engine that is designed to direct the oil to the sump; \\ | + | |
| - | Then the scavenge capacity of the oil pump will be severely reduced. \\ | + | |
| However, the testing was done in a controlled environment. \\ | However, the testing was done in a controlled environment. \\ | ||
| It is also assuming that the cam chest port in the pump is either full of oil or full of air during normal installed operation. \\ | It is also assuming that the cam chest port in the pump is either full of oil or full of air during normal installed operation. \\ | ||
| This will never be true in the real world. \\ | This will never be true in the real world. \\ | ||
| - | Crankcase pressure will end up dropping splash oil and oil mist into the cam chest port of the oil pump. \\ | + | In a 1986-1990 engine; \\ |
| - | It may not be a steady supply of oil but the cam chest port would never be dry. \\ | + | Crankcase pressure, cam and pinion gears will end up dropping oil mist and splash oil into the cam chest port of the 1998-up oil pumps. \\ |
| - | The pressure regulator in the 86-91 engine will dump excess oil into the gearcase as it was designed to do. \\ | + | It may not be a steady supply of oil but the cam chest port would never be completely dry. \\ |
| - | The regulator is notorious for leaking oil into the gearcase as well when not activated. \\ | + | The pressure regulator in the 1986-1991 engines will dump excess oil into the gearcase as it was designed to do. \\ |
| - | + | Some of this will also splash / get splash into the cam chest drain port. \\ | |
| - | So the results, even though interesting, will vary constantly inside a running engine. \\ | + | The regulator is notorious for leaking oil into the gearcase as well (when not activated by designed means). \\ |
| + | So the results, even though interesting, will vary constantly inside a running 1986-1990 engine. \\ | ||
| + | However, the Karling mod will eliminate the chance of cavitation in the oil pump (that's due from induced air into the cam chest port of the newer style oil pumps) \\ | ||
