Differences

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--- techtalk:ref:svcproc9l [2024/04/30 18:04]
hippysmack [Shifter Pawls]
+++ techtalk:ref:svcproc9l [2024/05/01 17:28] (current)
hippysmack
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
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-====== REF: Service Procedures 9G ======
+====== REF: Service Procedures 9I ======
 \\
 ====== How to Blueprint Your Shifter ======
@@ Line 209: / Line 209: @@
 Done. You can get o-1 steel from your local industrial supply house. \\
-This hardening procedure probably won't work for, say, J&P hats. And if by some freak chance the steel they use does contain enuff carbon to get hard, will it get brittle too? That's a very big question. Your bike is too precious to use as a guinea pig to find out. For steel to be hard and tuff at the same time requires a steel formulated for that. \\
+This hardening procedure probably won't work for, say, J&P hats. And if by some freak chance the steel they use does contain enuff carbon to get hard, will it get brittle too? That's a very big question. Your bike is too precious to use as a guinea pig to find out. For steel to be hard and tuff at the same time requires a steel formulated for that. \\
+Making your own top hats is not obsessive compulsive. In the pic below, forgive the rust. \\
+These used home-mades have been in the top drawer of my tool box for at least 30 yrs. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_homemade_tophats_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
 ====== Fork Shaft ======
@@ Line 338: / Line 342: @@
 The pawls are loaded against the camplate by springs. #32 or #52. Rarely the #32 spring will break. Inspect these. Don't stretch them or use one that have been stretched. I've never seen a #52 spring failure. \\
-For guys with 1952-1976 bikes, either style pawls may be fitted providing you also install the matching carrier (#34 or #35) and springs. This is gonna bring up the inevitable "which one are better" question. \\
+For guys with 1952-1976 bikes, either style pawls may be fitted providing you also install the matching carrier (#34 or #35) and springs. This is gonna bring up the inevitable "which one are better" question. Actually this doesn't apply to just 1976<. By shortening the hub on the carrier, any 1976< carrier can be used in the 1977> tower. \\
-It's a a buck dancers choice: \\
+It's a buck dancers choice: \\
 The claws are idiot proof - they always seem to work for street use. \\
 The plungers are beefier but they require some craft to work flawlessly. (wait for carrier posts). \\
 I've seen some claw type carriers bend and break pawl pins loose on air shifted dragsters. \\
+Plungers by design need to ride in bores or guides. If you look at the at rest position of carrier you see this: \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_plunger_pawl_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&500|}} \\
+\\
+The major polluter of trans oil is wet clutches. The 2nd biggest problem is errant nylon from primary chain skid shoes. \\
+Recommendations to preclude stuck pawls on 71<: \\
+a) Run the 72> claws instead of the plungers. These never stick. See carrier post for the correct vintage to fit. \\
+If you decide that you'd rather have the super duty shifting provided by the plungers, other things need to be done: \\\
+b) Every one should be running flat sided primary chains - they don't tear up skid shoes. \\
+b) Use a dry clutch. If that's not gonna work for you see 1a. \\
+b) Recreate the 1952-1957 hardened skid shoe.
+====== Carriers ======
+===== Carrier 1 =====
+There are 4 different versions of OEM "pawl carriers" and 5 OEM versions of the "pawl carrier support" (I call this part "shift tower"). ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/125248-about-the-trans/page2?postcount=27#post2633705)) \\
+This is the 1952-1953 carrier. \\
+The thin area renders these unsuitable for 54> cases. The 1952-1953 cases used a bolt in stop (34625-52 in 1st post) that limited shifter shaft rotation. In 1954, that part was dropped and carrier rotation stop was moved to contact between carrier and retractors. In 1966, this was beefed up. More on that to come. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_carrier_1952-1953_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+-1971 carrier. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_carrier_1954-1971_by_drdick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+-up carrier. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_carrier_1972-up_by_drdick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+Areas of interest.
+  - The thru bore for camplate axle.
+  - The journal surrounding the thru bore that fits into the tower.
+  - The stop area.
+  - Pawl bores (71<) or pins (72>).
+  - Location of centering pin.
+Symmetry. When assmed operational symmetry between these parts become important between; \\
+Pawls \\
+Retractors \\
+Camplate teeth \\
+Due to manufacturing tolerance, stacking operational symmetry can be compromised. \\
+After explaining how the symmetry can be screwed up, we will talk about repairing it. \\
+I'll take a bunch of pics to illustrate all the relationships. \\
+To do that, I'll need to jump ahead to the tower geometry then come back to the carriers. \\
+===== Carrier 2 =====
+When building a bike that's gotta deal with the real life of a hardened biker ruggedness becomes important. \\
+No one I know wants their bike to give out before they do. \\
+When beaten by miles and smiles you want your bike still working to drag your sunburned ass back to the couch. \\
+Fact - bikes get dropped. If your shift peg down and the peg catches you can: \\
+(A) Pop shift shaft ball out of carrier seat. \\
+(B) Break ball clean off. \\
+Either of these will end your fun. Let's deal with 'A' 1st. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_shift_shaft_ball_location_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+If you own a 1952-1953 equipped with OEM stuff, this isn't a problem as the bolt in stop wont allow the ball to force it's way out of the carrier seat. But you have other problems. The shifter lever is splined to the shift shaft - limits adjustability of peg position and production variances between position of stop to position of seat may limit shift shaft rotation. So that full carrier rotation is no longer assured = missed shifts. \\
+The factory got away from that scene on production bikes by dumping the case stop and allowing the carrier rotation to be the limiter. Now the carrier can always rotate it maximum. Dropping the splines got rid of the position adjustability issue and added a slip joint between lever and shaft providing you didn't torque the shift pinch bolt as if it's a crankpin nut. This slip joint saved your weekend (the racers continued to use the splined shifters). \\
+Alas, HD guys aren't the most finesse-full. So the pinch bolt got creamed solid and balls popping from seats resulted. Look at how thin the seat is in the pic at top of this post. This thin section flexes and popped out ball is the result when used with no case stop. \\
+How? \
+Look at these pics. They show the carrier at it's limit. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_carrier_at_limit_1_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_carrier_at_limit_2_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+See this? It's the carrier at it's stop. Read that as: \\
+This is what stops your shift peg travel, both upshift and downshift. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_carrier_at_limit_3_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+With the carrier now contacting the retractor, the flexing seat opening allows pop out. See this 1954-1971 carrier is beefier at seat. This works fine for all but the ham-fisted. Ham fisters are the meat and potatoes of the HD clientele.
+Even though a workable system was in place, the education needed was not. A "ham fist proof" system was needed to stop the pop out. \\
+In 1966 it was instituted. It was comprised of 3 items. \\
+(two being unknown to all but the most ardent students of these bikes. The last is still being totally misunderstood). \\
+  - The retractors themselves got beefed so they didn't flex and allowing the carrier seat to over-rotate. Over rotation will allow ball to come free from seat. The 3 pics above show a 1966-1971 tower and the beefy retractors. I do not have any pics of the 65< retractors right now.
+  - A .015" thick shim that slipped over the shift shaft before it gets installed into the c'case. What this did was to get ball deeper in seat. If you knew that stuff, move to the head of the class and see if you know about item 3.
+  - The tower shim that goes between tower and door. If you think that was instituted as a gear spacing tool move back to the rear of the class. It was the mate to the shaft shim. The shim is a shifting improvement tool, as it also helped deepen the ball engagement.
+These changes made popped out balls a non issue and as a side effect of the new geometry, the shift throw at peg got shorter. But like many mechanical mods, they created a new problem. That is problem 'B' from above. \\
+(B) break ball clean off. \\
+All this deeper ball engagement allowed the stem under the ball to get pinched in the seat opening. \\
+This "pinch" shows on the stem as a little worn area or a dent like in the pic below. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_shifter_ball_dent_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+To stop the new problem, the shaft shim was dropped, leaving just the tower shim. In 1973, the new wrought steel shaft head and ball addressed all the shims, so the shims were dropped. The amf wrought head was pinned to the shaft. Those pins broke or fell out. These need the head and shaft to be welded solid. \\
+A 1966-1971 tower with the original HARDENED retractors. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_tower_1966-1971_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+A tower out of any 1975-up with the soft retractors. \\
+Keywords: bent, distorted, worn. In plain English, the retractors went to hell. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_tower_1975-up_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+**Question**:
+  * buskit: Are hardened retractors available? Did they have a different part# or just a production change? I ask because I have two sets, one aftermarket junk that's modified to work and is in use. And one set that is obviously not hardened as they are bent. I'd like a set to put on my new tower when I re-set up my shifter. It works fine. But I don't want the aftermarket tower to stay.
+  * Dr Dick: That's actually what started this thread - questions by mtc496 on how to correctly fit a trock tower. \\ The trock tower is a pretty raw item as delivered. There is massaging required if you want it be as good as it can be.
+To get it there, you need to understand the factory stuff inside and out. That particular info is what we cover next.
+There are no shortcuts to blueprinting. That's why most guys don't undertake it. Out of the box the trock tower may be worse than the factory units. When blueprinted, it's way better than anything else.
+What you need is a 1966-1971 tower to salvage the retractors from. On 77-up, you can use the 65< units also. 77> don't have as much peg throw as 76< did. The long peg throw of the earlier bikes applies more leverage to the carrier stops.
+They need the 66> where the 77> bikes work fine with either. Finding cracked towers at an indy will get you what you need for cheap. You're lookin for the tower on the left. They crack at the red line. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_1971_vs_1972_towers_1_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+\\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_1971_vs_1972_towers_2_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}}
+**Questions**: \\
+  * doodah man: Is setting the "retractor" arm pins a straight forward installation? or is there some trickery to it
+  * Dr Dick: In order to replace the arms you grind/drill off the rivet heads, then drive the arms off. This leaves the rivet shanks in the tower. The shanks are a press fit into tower. That's important. \\ So, you need new rivets with good tight fit to tower and to arms. If there is any sloppy rivet diameters, the arms will move in operation. Finding a good used tower with hard arms is usually a better option than transplanting them.
+  * buskit: Does my trock tower use rivets? Or are they "built in"? Meaning you pean over the nubs cast into the piece?
+  * Dr Dick: The rivets are actually precision pins that you peen both ends. There is no rivet head. Rivet was a terrible choice of word on my part. These pins are already installed in the trock tower.
+Here is the 1977-1985 tower. Changed for clearance of the 1977 up shifter shaft that came in from the left. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_1977-1985_shift_tower_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+And here is the old trock cast iron tower, by far the best shift fork control and never breaks. Best of both worlds. \\
+{{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_trock_cast_iron_tower_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}} \\
+====== Shift Shaft ======
+To this point, we have talked about each part (with the exception of the centering springs and the tower) and how it interacts with its mates. It's time to carry this a bit farther from the workbench. \\
+At this point, you should have a working knowledge of how your toe moves the forks. Every part we talked about so far is hung from the trans door, except one. The shift shaft. That part is hung from the engine cases. \\
+So, you need to test the shift shaft interface with the carrier. \\
+One is located by the case (shift shaft) and one is located by door and tower (pawl carrier). \\
+Procedure: \\
+  - Take your empty tower, (leave centering springs and pawls on work bench. You don't want them yet) and install the carrier and cam plate. Drop on washer and snap ring. What you have is a tower assm less the centering springs and pawls and pawl springs. Check for excessive slop at axle. How? Assm tower to door/fork shaft assm (see above for door/shaft assm) make sure plunger and spring are installed in door. Tighten tower to door. How parallel is cam plate to fork shaft? \\ As parallel goes away, the hats lose operational integrity to camplate slots. The 3-4 hat can bind on the brim and the 1-2 will lose slot engagement depth. \\ How much is too much? That is subjective - how much tire or chain wear is too much? You need to used your judgement to decide if your Ok or if you need to work on plate/fork shaft parallelism. Observe and deduce. (below, the cam plate is rotated into a non operational position, but this pic should show you the parallel im talking about) \\ {{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_cam_plate_1952-1970_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}}
+  - Install door sub assm to case to check carrier operation.
+    * Plunger pressure should allow you to center the carrier in its travel and hold it there.
+    * Slip shift shaft in case.
+    * Assm door to case and tighten.
+    * On 1977> install primary cover. On 76< install cam cover. \\ At this point any rotation of shift shaft will translate into carrier (not camplate) rotation. Does the carrier/shift shaft interface operate like silk thru the entire stroke? It should. If not find out why. For instance:
+      * Bent shafts
+      * Overly tall welds on beefed 73> style shaft heads that results in a pinched situation between tower top and welded shaft.
+      * Over shimmed tower/shaft resulting in pinch interference at nest. (See above)
+Next, we tackle carrier centering, pawling bias, and cam plate slot registration. \\
+**Question**: \\
+  *  megavites: What tranny issue might cause the shift arm to occasionally spin the shaft without actually clicking into the next gear. It also occasionally binds. I'm pretty sure the shifter is not spinning on the shaft and I'm wondering if this is an easy fix or leading me down the road to a tranny overhaul on my 73 XLCH.
+  * Dr Dick: I'll bet you have the most common shifter problem. Go to 1st post and see item 1). See that pin (used on 73>)? I'll bet yours is sheared. As a cure guys will weld the head to the shaft (I do it) and the weld will break if the weld isn't prepped well. I'll bet one of those two scenarios is at hand for you. \\ {{:techtalk:ref:svcproc:htbs_shift_shaft_pin_1973_up_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&600|}}
+\\
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