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techtalk:ref:wheels06 [2021/02/07 03:02] hippysmack [Bleeder Screw Issues] |
techtalk:ref:wheels06 [2024/01/25 01:07] hippysmack |
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| ====== REF: Wheels, Brakes & Tires ====== | ====== REF: Wheels, Brakes & Tires ====== | ||
| ====== Bleeding the Brake Lines ====== | ====== Bleeding the Brake Lines ====== | ||
| + | This page consists of many different means and methods to bleed the brake system and perspective advice. \\ | ||
| + | All will work some of the time and none will work some of the time. And what works for one person doesn't work for the next either. \\ | ||
| - | ====== Bleeding The Brake System By The Book ====== | + | The right way is the way that works for you! \\ |
| + | One way seems to work for some but not for others and having several options gives a person versatility. \\ | ||
| + | However, your main tool when bleeding brakes is patience. \\ | ||
| + | \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====== Bleeding The Brake System By The Book ====== | ||
| **Note on potential brake fluid leaks**: \\ | **Note on potential brake fluid leaks**: \\ | ||
| 2000 model brake bleeder screws can retain fluid on the threads and in the bleeder bore which can seep out giving the impression there is a brake fluid leak. ((HD Tech Tip #51 dated December 1999)) \\ | 2000 model brake bleeder screws can retain fluid on the threads and in the bleeder bore which can seep out giving the impression there is a brake fluid leak. ((HD Tech Tip #51 dated December 1999)) \\ | ||
| Line 15: | Line 22: | ||
| Residual fluid will be removed during normal washings. If brake fluid re-appears, diagnose the cause. \\ | Residual fluid will be removed during normal washings. If brake fluid re-appears, diagnose the cause. \\ | ||
| If fluid re-appears at the caliper seam or mounting bolts, it may indicate the crossover seals are leaking. \\ Disassemble and repair the caliper using the procedures in the appropriate FSM. \\ | If fluid re-appears at the caliper seam or mounting bolts, it may indicate the crossover seals are leaking. \\ Disassemble and repair the caliper using the procedures in the appropriate FSM. \\ | ||
| - | ==== Notes: ==== | ||
| + | ==== Notes: ==== | ||
| * When checking the relief port operation: | * When checking the relief port operation: | ||
| * The 2000 FSM says to check the relief port after bleeding the system. ((2000 HD XLH FSM pg 2-57)) | * The 2000 FSM says to check the relief port after bleeding the system. ((2000 HD XLH FSM pg 2-57)) | ||
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| ==== When You Should Bleed The System ==== | ==== When You Should Bleed The System ==== | ||
| - | |||
| - Bleed the hydraulic brake system anytime a brake line, M/C or caliper has been opened. | - Bleed the hydraulic brake system anytime a brake line, M/C or caliper has been opened. | ||
| - Whenever the brake pedal or lever operation feels spongy. | - Whenever the brake pedal or lever operation feels spongy. | ||
| + | |||
| ==== Before Bleeding ==== | ==== Before Bleeding ==== | ||
| - | |||
| Arrange for the master cylinder to be in a level position by standing the bike upright (off the kickstand). | Arrange for the master cylinder to be in a level position by standing the bike upright (off the kickstand). | ||
| ==== Manually Bleeding ==== | ==== Manually Bleeding ==== | ||
| - | |||
| - Install the end of a length of plastic tubing over the caliper bleeder valve. Place the free end of the tube in a clean container. | - Install the end of a length of plastic tubing over the caliper bleeder valve. Place the free end of the tube in a clean container. | ||
| - Add new brake fluid to M/C until the fluid level is 1/8” (3.2mm) from the top. | - Add new brake fluid to M/C until the fluid level is 1/8” (3.2mm) from the top. | ||
| Line 50: | Line 55: | ||
| ==== Bleeding ABS Brake System ==== | ==== Bleeding ABS Brake System ==== | ||
| - | The trick with ABS is when bleeding the fluid, a scan tool is needed to activate the ABS pumps to bleed properly. ((decman of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2003960)) \\ | + | The trick with ABS is when bleeding the fluid, a scan tool is needed to activate the ABS pumps to bleed properly. ((decman of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/187728-changing-brake-pads-on-abs-bikes?t=2003960)) \\ |
| Daytona Twin Tec Twin Scan II and III can be used for that. \\ | Daytona Twin Tec Twin Scan II and III can be used for that. \\ | ||
| When changing the pads, only compress the pistons enough for the new pads. \\ | When changing the pads, only compress the pistons enough for the new pads. \\ | ||
| Remove some fluid before doing that. \\ | Remove some fluid before doing that. \\ | ||
| Also careful with the ABS wheel sensors / wires when removing the calipers. \\ | Also careful with the ABS wheel sensors / wires when removing the calipers. \\ | ||
| + | |||
| ====== Bleeding Methods from XLFORUM Members ====== | ====== Bleeding Methods from XLFORUM Members ====== | ||
| See also [[techtalk:ref:wheels06a|An Exercise in Bleeding the Brake System]] \\ | See also [[techtalk:ref:wheels06a|An Exercise in Bleeding the Brake System]] \\ | ||
| - | |||
| - | There are many methods of bleeding brakes from XLFORUM members as outlined below. \\ | ||
| - | All will work some of the time and none will work some of the time. \\ | ||
| - | What works for one person doesn't work for the next either. \\ | ||
| - | |||
| - | The right way is the way that works for you! | ||
| - | |||
| ====== Reverse Bleeding Thru the Calipers ====== | ====== Reverse Bleeding Thru the Calipers ====== | ||
| ===== Using a Syringe ===== | ===== Using a Syringe ===== | ||
| - | |||
| The key to this method is a slow push from the caliper to the master cylinder. \\ | The key to this method is a slow push from the caliper to the master cylinder. \\ | ||
| - | Too fast and you spit brake fluid all over the bike and the floor. \\ | + | Too fast and you spit brake fluid all over the bike and the floor due to exerting higher pressure into the line. \\ |
| - | The handle end of the master cylinder must be higher than the hose end so the air bubbles will move to the relief port of the master cylinder. ((ryder rick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1025390&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) \\ | + | It may be hard to push the syringe plunger especially if pushing hard. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/204454-reverse-bleed-question#post4596184)) \\ |
| - | You can also use a squirt type oil can with some rubber tubing on the spout slipped over the cracked-open bleeder. ((chopfather of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33235&page=3)) \\ | + | The hole in the MC is smaller than the hose and you'll be pushing fluid uphill from the bleeder screw thru the small orifice in the master cylinder. \\ |
| + | This creates back pressure on the line down to the syringe from that hole. \\ | ||
| + | And that is where the pressure comes from (back pressure due to the smaller outlet ID. \\ | ||
| + | The faster / harder you push, the harder it's going to be to move the syringe. But it will work as many people do use this method. \\ | ||
| + | Likewise, the slower you push, the easier it should be to move the fluid (not to say it will be easy though, depending on hand strength). \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | The handle end of the master cylinder must be higher than the hose end so the air bubbles will move to the relief port of the master cylinder. ((ryder rick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/109840-bleeding-front-brake?t=1025390&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) \\ | ||
| + | You can also use a squirt type oil can with some rubber tubing on the spout slipped over the cracked-open bleeder. ((chopfather of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-photos-videos/20061-bleeding-brakes/page3?t=33235&page=3)) \\ | ||
| Or, you can use a turkey basting syringe and a foot of rubber hose. | Or, you can use a turkey basting syringe and a foot of rubber hose. | ||
| - | - Discard the needle from the syringe, remove lid from master cylinder and re-set it on top. \\ It must be off of course, but the master cylinder must be covered to prevent the fluid from squirting 10' across the shop. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) | + | - Discard the needle from the syringe, remove lid from master cylinder and re-set it on top. \\ It must be off of course, but the master cylinder must be covered to prevent the fluid from squirting 10' across the shop. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) |
| - | - Attach a short clear plastic tube to the end of the syringe. \\ Best to use a tube that is "too small" in diameter. \\ This is important to get a really tight seal on the bleeder to the point you have to force it onto the bleeder with needle nose pliers. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) | + | - Attach a short clear plastic tube to the end of the syringe. \\ Best to use a tube that is "too small" in diameter. \\ This is important to get a really tight seal on the bleeder to the point you have to force it onto the bleeder with needle nose pliers. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) |
| - | - Use the syringe to empty the master cylinder and discard this fluid. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) | + | - Use the syringe to empty the master cylinder and discard this fluid. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) |
| - | - Fill the syringe with new brake fluid and let stand for 5 minutes or so for the bubbles to rise out of the syringe / tube. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) | + | - Fill the syringe with new brake fluid and let stand for 5 minutes or so for the bubbles to rise out of the syringe / tube. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) |
| - | - Attach to bleeder, hold it upright and fiddle with the tube until air has risen into syringe. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) | + | - Attach to bleeder, hold it upright and fiddle with the tube until air has risen into syringe. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) |
| - | - Loosen the bleeder and slowly squeeze the fluid through. \\ Do not release pressure on the syringe without tightening the bleeder. \\ Or some fluid and possibly some air may get drawn back. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) | + | - Loosen the bleeder and slowly squeeze the fluid through. \\ Do not release pressure on the syringe without tightening the bleeder. \\ Or some fluid and possibly some air may get drawn back. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?t=1489822&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) |
| Using 30ML syringes (or anything smaller than 60ML), \\ | Using 30ML syringes (or anything smaller than 60ML), \\ | ||
| - | You'll have to push fluid at least two separate times to get new fluid / air from the bottom to the M/C. ((TheForce of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-50864.html)) \\ | + | You'll have to push fluid at least two separate times to get new fluid / air from the bottom to the M/C. ((TheForce of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/30549-question-on-bleeding-brakes-w-syringe)) \\ |
| - Draw in a 30 ML's of brake fluid into the syringe and cover the master cylinder with a rag. | - Draw in a 30 ML's of brake fluid into the syringe and cover the master cylinder with a rag. | ||
| Line 90: | Line 95: | ||
| - Lightly pump the M/C a few times and hold. | - Lightly pump the M/C a few times and hold. | ||
| - Open the bleed valve and repeat until you feel a good strong push. | - Open the bleed valve and repeat until you feel a good strong push. | ||
| - | ===== Using a Vacuum Pump ===== | ||
| - | * You can use a vacuum pump to reverse bleed fluid from a jar, up the brake line and into caliper. ((Matt of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47150)) | + | ===== Using a Vacuum Pump ===== |
| + | * You can use a vacuum pump to reverse bleed fluid from a jar, up the brake line and into caliper. ((Matt of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/28453-is-the-mighty-vac-worth-the-40-bucks-for-brake-bleeding?t=47150)) | ||
| ====== Force Bleeding Thru the Bleeder Screw ====== | ====== Force Bleeding Thru the Bleeder Screw ====== | ||
| Line 340: | Line 345: | ||
| ==== Before attempting to bleed the lines ==== | ==== Before attempting to bleed the lines ==== | ||
| - | * Remove the M/C top, actuate the pedal / lever and make sure you can see a bubble in the center to make sure the M/C is working. | + | * Remove the M/C top, actuate the pedal / lever and make sure you can see a small squirt of fluid in the center to make sure the M/C is working. |
| - | * Pump hard on the brake pedal lever. You should see a small buble as mentioned above. | + | * The small squirt of fluid is just a visual that tells you the piston is retracting home as it should when released. \\ The small fluid (not air) squirt only shows up on initial single push of the lever/pedal, not upon release. \\ The hole through from the reservoir to the entire brake fluid path is JUST in front of the rubber on the piston. \\ From that hole, lever/pedal at rest, the entire brake line/fluid path is open to the reservoir up top. \\ Brake system is now an (open system). |
| - | * If you see a geyser in the reservoir, you've torn the rubber cup in the master cylinder. ((rejeanprimeau of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1643503)) \\ (to avoid this in the future: open the bleeder when pushing your caliper piston in) | + | * When you press the lever/pedal, the piston in the master is pushed past the hole and the front rubber piston seal closes off the hole to the reservoir. \\ The entire brake line/fluid path is now closed to the reservoir up top.\\ Brake system is now a (closed system). |
| - | * Make sure that the system has been thoroughly cleaned/flushed of all old fluid and any debris. | + | * You should be able to see the piston/seal pass back and forth thru the hole in the bottom of the reservoir by actuating the lever/pedal. |
| - | * Fill the system/brake cylinder bowl with the correct fluid. | + | * The caliper piston(s) continuously expand/contract in their bore when the pressure from the master cylinder pushes and releases on them. \\ And when the pads wear, the caliper pistons do not retract as much as when the pads are new. \\ They gradually take up the space that the now thinner pads leave behind. \\ So when the caliper doesn't retract it's piston(s) fully, that leaves less fluid in the lines when the master's piston does retract. \\ The hole in the bottom of the master reservoir adds fluid to the system after it's piston retracts. |
| - | * Ensure that the relief port is clear of debris. | + | * If the master cylinder piston is fully retracting (as it should) at rest, you should get a slight spurt of fluid on the next single push of the lever/pedal. \\ (and only until the rubber seal gets forward of the hole to the reservoir) \\ If you actuate the lever/pedal repeatedly then you may not be giving the M/C piston time to retract enough to get the squirt. |
| - | * Make sure the brake cylinder piston is fully retracted. ((XLFREAK of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1062732&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe&page=4)) | + | * If the M/C piston doesn't retract home (and past the hole to the reservoir), you will not get the squirt of fluid. \\ Either you are actuating the lever/pedal too quickly to get the squirt or there is something wrong with the piston/seals. \\ And you'll need to remove the guts and inspect which usually means to install a new kit. \\ No disturbance or squirt would result in a dragging brake, decreased pad life and gradual brake energization due to heat buildup. ((TSBM-712 dated June 16,1977)) \\ You can verify whether the piston is retracted by carefully running a thin wire (.020") into the small hole from the reservoir into the cylinder bore. \\ An interference with the wire would indicate that the cup was covering the hole and inspection of the cause should be made. |
| - | * Check the brake pads to ensure they are within spec. | + | * Recap: |
| - | * When you crack the bleeder valve, only turn it a 1/4 turn or so. ((DaytonaSportster of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1637840&page=2)) \\ Any more and you will get air from around the threads. \\ Also if you're using a vac, make sure it's not leaking where you attach it to the bleeder nipple. | + | * Push the lever/pedal and release....once and let go. You should see a small squirt of fluid on the push action. |
| + | * You should NOT see a squirt when releasing the lever/pedal, only initial single push instead. | ||
| + | * If you see a geyser of fluid, the rubber cup busted at the piston in the master cylinder and you'll need to install a repair kit. ((rejeanprimeau of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1643503)) \\ (to avoid this in the future: open the bleeder when pushing your caliper piston in) | ||
| + | * If you don't have a geyser shooting up when pushing the lever, the rubber is doing it's job. | ||
| + | * An occasional air bubble of any size from the squirt indicates air in the brake system and has got to be removed. | ||
| + | * Bleed until there are NO air bubbles. | ||
| + | * Make sure that the system has been thoroughly cleaned/flushed of all old fluid and any debris. | ||
| + | * Fill the system/brake cylinder bowl with the correct fluid. | ||
| + | * Ensure that the relief port is clear of debris. | ||
| + | * Make sure the brake cylinder piston is fully retracted. ((XLFREAK of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1062732&highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe&page=4)) | ||
| + | * Check the brake pads to ensure they are within spec. | ||
| + | * When you crack the bleeder valve, only turn it a 1/4 turn or so. ((DaytonaSportster of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1637840&page=2)) \\ Any more and you will get air from around the threads. \\ Also if you're using a vac, make sure it's not leaking where you attach it to the bleeder nipple. | ||
| ==== How the master cylinder transfers fluid ==== | ==== How the master cylinder transfers fluid ==== | ||
