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techtalk:ref:wheels06 [2024/01/25 02:39]
hippysmack
techtalk:ref:wheels06 [2024/01/25 04:03] (current)
hippysmack
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     * When attaching a piece of hose to the bleed valve on the caliper, place a box wrench on the bleeder first. \\ Then put the hose over it on the valve. ((Big Al-1200c of the XLFORUM https://​www.xlforum.net/​forum/​sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​100666-brake-bleeding/​page2?​t=867917&​page=2))     * When attaching a piece of hose to the bleed valve on the caliper, place a box wrench on the bleeder first. \\ Then put the hose over it on the valve. ((Big Al-1200c of the XLFORUM https://​www.xlforum.net/​forum/​sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​100666-brake-bleeding/​page2?​t=867917&​page=2))
   * **Length**:   * **Length**:
-    * About 3-4 feet should do. You just need it to be taller than the caliper and where you can see it while pumping the pedal / lever. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=2072934))+    * About 3-4 feet should do. You just need it to be taller than the caliper and where you can see it while pumping the pedal / lever. ((Hippysmack of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​196411-bleeding-rear-brakes-and-adjustment-1985?​t=2072934))
     * You may find the more length you have, the more versatility you have when using several bleeding methods. \\ It wouldn'​t hurt to buy a 10 feet or more roll of tubing. It gives you more options.     * You may find the more length you have, the more versatility you have when using several bleeding methods. \\ It wouldn'​t hurt to buy a 10 feet or more roll of tubing. It gives you more options.
   * **Considerations**:​   * **Considerations**:​
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     * Bleeding into a cup can waste more fluid than gravity bleeding.     * Bleeding into a cup can waste more fluid than gravity bleeding.
     * The threads between the bleeder and caliper can allow atmosphere to enter them which can be sucked up into the hose. \\ You can actually close the bleeder, then add a little fluid in the hose near the bleeder, apply suction on the hose and watch bubbles appear in the hose. \\ This can trick you into thinking the air is coming from the brake system. \\ You can hold the bleeder tight against the threads and shut off air infiltration from the atmosphere. \\ You can remove the bleeder screw and apply a little grease around the threads to help stop outside air infiltration. \\ Some have used plumber'​s thread tape to seal the threads and keep out air. \\ However, if not done properly, small fragments of the tape can break off and enter the caliper/​brake system and stop up orifices. \\ Some have also used pipe thread dressing (pipe dope) to seal the threads. \\ Use this sparingly as pipe dope will stay solid to milky thick if it is allowed to fall into the caliper.     * The threads between the bleeder and caliper can allow atmosphere to enter them which can be sucked up into the hose. \\ You can actually close the bleeder, then add a little fluid in the hose near the bleeder, apply suction on the hose and watch bubbles appear in the hose. \\ This can trick you into thinking the air is coming from the brake system. \\ You can hold the bleeder tight against the threads and shut off air infiltration from the atmosphere. \\ You can remove the bleeder screw and apply a little grease around the threads to help stop outside air infiltration. \\ Some have used plumber'​s thread tape to seal the threads and keep out air. \\ However, if not done properly, small fragments of the tape can break off and enter the caliper/​brake system and stop up orifices. \\ Some have also used pipe thread dressing (pipe dope) to seal the threads. \\ Use this sparingly as pipe dope will stay solid to milky thick if it is allowed to fall into the caliper.
- 
  
 {{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​bleeder_screw_sucking_air_by_hippysmack.png?​direct&​300|}} ((drawing by Hippysmack)) \\ {{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​bleeder_screw_sucking_air_by_hippysmack.png?​direct&​300|}} ((drawing by Hippysmack)) \\
- 
  
 ===== Where to buy syringes ===== ===== Where to buy syringes =====
 A syringe can be used to reverse bleed from the bleeder valve to the caliper. \\ A syringe can be used to reverse bleed from the bleeder valve to the caliper. \\
 The syringes needed are the big ones (not an injection syringe as you'd normally see used in medical applications). \\ The syringes needed are the big ones (not an injection syringe as you'd normally see used in medical applications). \\
-A 60 ml (2 oz) syringe is just the right size. That is about the amount that will fill the master cylinder and the line. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=295754&​page=2))+A 60 ml (2 oz) syringe is just the right size. That is about the amount that will fill the master cylinder and the line. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​57107-simply-bleeding-the-front-brake/​page2?​t=295754&​page=2))
  
   * Sources for syringes:   * Sources for syringes:
-    * You can buy the 60 ml irrigation syringe at any drug store, especially one specializing in home medical products. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=1489822&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) +    * You can buy the 60 ml irrigation syringe at any drug store, especially one specializing in home medical products. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​137228-the-right-way-to-flush-brake-lines?​t=1489822&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) 
-    *An irrigation syringe from your local pharmacy. ((docweston of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=1025390&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe&​page=2)) +    *An irrigation syringe from your local pharmacy. ((docweston of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​109840-bleeding-front-brake/​page2?​t=1025390&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe&​page=2)) 
-    *A mustard or ketchup squirt bottle. ((Loves Curves of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=1456442&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe)) +    *A mustard or ketchup squirt bottle. ((Loves Curves of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​134945-bleeding-the-rear-brakes?​t=1456442&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe)) 
-    * A big ole horse syringe from a veterinarian supply store. ((rocketmangb of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=1632435&​page=2)) +    * A big ole horse syringe from a veterinarian supply store. ((rocketmangb of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​150929-rubbermount-rear-master-cylinder/​page2?​t=1632435&​page=2)) 
-    * Bird supply shops sell a variety of syringes that are used for hand feeding newborns. ((stealthammer of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=33235&​page=2)) +    * Bird supply shops sell a variety of syringes that are used for hand feeding newborns. ((stealthammer of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-photos-videos/​20061-bleeding-brakes/​page2?​t=33235&​page=2)) 
-    * Tractor Supply (or other farm implement stores). ((72Iron of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=33235&​page=3))+    * Tractor Supply (or other farm implement stores). ((72Iron of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-photos-videos/​20061-bleeding-brakes/​page3?​t=33235&​page=3))
  
 ===== Leave the calipers on ===== ===== Leave the calipers on =====
- 
   * Rumor has it to take the calipers off to bleed the brakes. \\ There is no reason to do this unless you have a defective master cylinder. \\ Bleeding the lines with the calipers on is the best way to accomplish the chore and to keep from inducing more air or damage to the brake system. \\ Below are some good examples of this.    * Rumor has it to take the calipers off to bleed the brakes. \\ There is no reason to do this unless you have a defective master cylinder. \\ Bleeding the lines with the calipers on is the best way to accomplish the chore and to keep from inducing more air or damage to the brake system. \\ Below are some good examples of this. 
  
 ===== Bench bleeding a new master cylinder ===== ===== Bench bleeding a new master cylinder =====
- +  ​* On a new master cylinder (or one that has been removed from the bike); \\ You can bench bleed it to purge the air out of the master cylinder before installing it onto your brake system. ((sunchild2071 of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-general-discussion-and-problems/127783-bench-bleeding))
-  ​* On a new master cylinder (or one that has been removed from the bike); \\ You can bench bleed it to purge the air out of the master cylinder before installing it onto your brake system. ((sunchild2071 of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/archive/index.php/t-1314881.html))+
     * Hook up a short temporary line to it and leave the other end open.      * Hook up a short temporary line to it and leave the other end open. 
     * That open end is routed (must be clean) into the fluid in the master cylinder reservoir (in the fluid, not above).     * That open end is routed (must be clean) into the fluid in the master cylinder reservoir (in the fluid, not above).
     * Then actuate the master cylinder until fluid starts pumping, and no more bubbles appear.     * Then actuate the master cylinder until fluid starts pumping, and no more bubbles appear.
     * Once this process is done, install the M/C, hook up your actual brake lines and continue bleeding at the caliper bleed screw.     * Once this process is done, install the M/C, hook up your actual brake lines and continue bleeding at the caliper bleed screw.
 +
 ===== Master cylinder issues ===== ===== Master cylinder issues =====
   * **Note**:   * **Note**:
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   * **Clean the hole(s) in the bottom of the master cylinder**:   * **Clean the hole(s) in the bottom of the master cylinder**:
     * The transfer hole(s) can get clogged from debris or solids that drop out of suspension in the fluid itself. \\ Clear them with a pin, a bristle from a wire brush, welding tip cleaner or other or the master cylinder will not transfer fluid properly.     * The transfer hole(s) can get clogged from debris or solids that drop out of suspension in the fluid itself. \\ Clear them with a pin, a bristle from a wire brush, welding tip cleaner or other or the master cylinder will not transfer fluid properly.
-    * The holes can be plugged up solid yet still look like there is nothing in them. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=295754&​page=2)) +    * The holes can be plugged up solid yet still look like there is nothing in them. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​57107-simply-bleeding-the-front-brake/​page2?​t=295754&​page=2)) 
-  * **If none of the methods below work for you**; \\ You may either have a leaking compression fitting, \\ The cup in the master cylinder is blown out, \\ Or the big O-ring in the caliper is not sealing against the piston. \\ Those are the only three places for air to enter the system. ((wedge of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=1062732&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w%2FSyringe&​page=2)) +  * **If none of the methods below work for you**; \\ You may either have a leaking compression fitting, \\ The cup in the master cylinder is blown out, \\ Or the big O-ring in the caliper is not sealing against the piston. \\ Those are the only three places for air to enter the system. ((wedge of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-general-discussion-and-problems/​112336-can-t-bleed-the-rear-brake-keep-getting-air-bubbles/​page2?​t=1062732&​highlight=Brake+Fluid+Bleeding+w/Syringe&​page=2)) 
-  * **If it is a brand new master cylinder and it is not squirting hard** when you have the hose disconnected,​ \\ You might have a faulty Taiwan Trash master cylinder. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?t=857384)) \\ If none of the bleeding suggestions below work, try putting your old master cylinder back on. \\ Sometimes, you'll end up with a new aftermarket master cylinder that doesn'​t work. \\ The seals have been known to be jammed in cockeyed from the manufacturer. ​+  * **If it is a brand new master cylinder and it is not squirting hard** when you have the hose disconnected,​ \\ You might have a faulty Taiwan Trash master cylinder. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/​ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/​99884-brand-new-handlebar-controls-front-brake-won-t-bleed?t=857384)) \\ If none of the bleeding suggestions below work, try putting your old master cylinder back on. \\ Sometimes, you'll end up with a new aftermarket master cylinder that doesn'​t work. \\ The seals have been known to be jammed in cockeyed from the manufacturer. ​
   * A plugged or covered relief port can cause brake drag or locking of the brakes. ​   * A plugged or covered relief port can cause brake drag or locking of the brakes. ​
  
-  * **The 04-up rear master cylinder is well noted for a split primary cup**. (((Wedge of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=1643503&​page=2))  +  * **The 04-up rear master cylinder is well noted for a split primary cup**. (((Wedge of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​152494-brake-bleeding-problem/​page2?​t=1643503&​page=2))  
-    * It seems to regularly rear it's ugly head when you replace the rear tire or compressing the rear caliper piston, but there is no connection. ((wedge of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=65452&​page=8)) ((sfxtech of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?t=75157))+    * It seems to regularly rear it's ugly head when you replace the rear tire or compressing the rear caliper piston, but there is no connection. ((wedge of the XLFORUM http://​xlforum.net/​forums/​showthread.php?​t=65452&​page=8)) ((sfxtech of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​37937-my-rear-master-cylinder-re-build?t=75157))
       * What seems to happen is that the primary cup gets torn in the center and it manages to still work as long as the MC is not disturbed much. \\ (since it is backed up with that flat metal plunger which helps it seal even though broken)       * What seems to happen is that the primary cup gets torn in the center and it manages to still work as long as the MC is not disturbed much. \\ (since it is backed up with that flat metal plunger which helps it seal even though broken)
       * **Symptoms include**:       * **Symptoms include**:
-        * Loss of brake pressure and then it's regained as you ride. ((CBAS5 of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?t=65452)) \\ Or, you may '​feel'​ something different with the brake pedal but the brakes may still function just fine.  ((devilswild66 of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?t=65452)) \\ Another account: \\ "Felt like there was air in the system, but a few pumps on the pedal and I could ride for a day or two until the pedal got low again"​. ((vferdman of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=75157&​page=3))  +        * Loss of brake pressure and then it's regained as you ride. ((CBAS5 of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​34640-rear-master-cylinder?t=65452)) \\ Or, you may '​feel'​ something different with the brake pedal but the brakes may still function just fine.  ((devilswild66 of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​34640-rear-master-cylinder?t=65452)) \\ Another account: \\ "Felt like there was air in the system, but a few pumps on the pedal and I could ride for a day or two until the pedal got low again"​. ((vferdman of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​37937-my-rear-master-cylinder-re-build/​page3?​t=75157&​page=3))  
-        * Spongy brake pedal. ((Hot Rod Sporty of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?t=65452))+        * Spongy brake pedal. ((Hot Rod Sporty of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​34640-rear-master-cylinder?t=65452))
         * Complete loss of brake pressure not to be regained.         * Complete loss of brake pressure not to be regained.
         * Can not bleed the system no matter which method used.         * Can not bleed the system no matter which method used.
Line 546: Line 543:
       * If, after tying back the rear brake lever (and everything else you are trying), the brakes do not pump up correctly, ​ \\ then just get the rebuild kit and follow the instructions. ​       * If, after tying back the rear brake lever (and everything else you are trying), the brakes do not pump up correctly, ​ \\ then just get the rebuild kit and follow the instructions. ​
       * It's quick, simple, easy, and if that cup is split you will never get it to bleed correctly regardless which method you try.       * It's quick, simple, easy, and if that cup is split you will never get it to bleed correctly regardless which method you try.
-      * The rebuild is an extremely easy job as long as you have a good set of retaining ring pliers. \\ If you loose the retaining ring that holds the master cylinder plunger to the bell crank, it is a 1/4". ((klinesamuel of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=65452&​page=5))+      * The rebuild is an extremely easy job as long as you have a good set of retaining ring pliers. \\ If you loose the retaining ring that holds the master cylinder plunger to the bell crank, it is a 1/4". ((klinesamuel of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​34640-rear-master-cylinder/​page5?​t=65452&​page=5))
  
-|  04+ split primary cup. ((photo by sfxtech of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=75157)) ​ |  M/C rebuild kit (42830-05) ((photo by sfxtech of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=75157)) ​ |+|  04+ split primary cup. ((photo by sfxtech of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​37937-my-rear-master-cylinder-re-build?​t=75157)) ​ |  M/C rebuild kit (42830-05) ((photo by sfxtech of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​37937-my-rear-master-cylinder-re-build?​t=75157)) ​ |
 |{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​damaged_rear_m-c_primary_cup_by_sfxtech.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​04_up_m-c_rebuild_kit_by_sfxtech.jpg?​direct&​300|}}| |{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​damaged_rear_m-c_primary_cup_by_sfxtech.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​04_up_m-c_rebuild_kit_by_sfxtech.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|
  
-|  More pics of the 04+ split primary cup issue. ((photos by devilswild66 of the XLFORUM ​http://​xlforum.net/​forums/showthread.php?​t=65452)) ​ |||+|  More pics of the 04+ split primary cup issue. ((photos by devilswild66 of the XLFORUM ​https://www.xlforum.net/​forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/​sportster-motorcycle-drivetrain/​sportster-motorcycle-tires-wheels-and-brakes-aa/​34640-rear-master-cylinder?​t=65452)) ​ |||
 |{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​master_cylinder_torn_primary_cup_1_by_devilswild66.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​master_cylinder_torn_primary_cup_2_by_devilswild66.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​master_cylinder_torn_primary_cup_3_by_devilswild66.jpg?​direct&​300|}}| |{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​master_cylinder_torn_primary_cup_1_by_devilswild66.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​master_cylinder_torn_primary_cup_2_by_devilswild66.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|{{:​techtalk:​ref:​wheels:​master_cylinder_torn_primary_cup_3_by_devilswild66.jpg?​direct&​300|}}|