Differences

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--- techtalk:ih:engmech02 [2020/08/25 16:34]
hippysmack [Camshaft Shims]
+++ techtalk:ih:engmech02 [2023/12/20 16:01] (current)
hippysmack
@@ Line 55: / Line 55: @@
 |**Late 1984-1985** ((1979-1985 HD Sportster Parts Catalog pg 19))|||||||
 |Front Exhaust|(seven part #s-84)|Range Brown - Black|||||
 ====== Removing Cams ======
-  * Slow and steady as she goes. That mind set will be very helpful in keeping problems to an absolute minimum. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1515914&page=5))
+  * Slow and steady as she goes. That mind set will be very helpful in keeping problems to an absolute minimum. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/139758-1968-xlch-dust-off/page3?t=1515914&page=5))
   - Get a good helper
   - Get a magnet on a stick ( and pray you won't need to use it).
@@ Line 74: / Line 73: @@
 ====== Gearcase Cover ======
-|  68 Gearcsae Cover ((photo by Bobeaser of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=563241))  |
+|  68 Gearcsae Cover ((photo by Bobeaser of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/78212-67-ironhead-oil-routing?t=563241))  |
 |{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:68_cam_cover_by_bobeaser.jpg?direct&300|}}|
 ====== Cam Bearings / Bushings ======
@@ Line 82: / Line 82: @@
 |{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:78_cam_bearings_by_dirtycory.jpg?direct&400|}}|
-|  78 Cam Bearings ((photo by by DirtyCory of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1297584&page=7))  |
+|  78 Cam Bearings ((photo by by DirtyCory of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/127032-getting-this-78-back-to-the-way-it-should-be/page7?t=1297584&page=7))  |
 ====== Camshaft Timing ======
-There is no relationship between the timing of the cams and the position of the crankshaft timing mark in the hole. Just line up the cam marks and the pinion gear mark and you are done. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3))
+There is no relationship between the timing of the cams and the position of the crankshaft timing mark in the hole. Just line up the cam marks and the pinion gear mark and you are done. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead/page3?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3))
 ====== Installing Cams ======
-|Use some clothes pins to hold the lifters out of the way ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|
+|Use some clothes pins to hold the lifters out of the way ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|
 |{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_1_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|Start with the pinion gear in around this position → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|CAM 1 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|CAM 2 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|
+|Start with the pinion gear in around this position → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|CAM 1 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|CAM 2 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|
 |{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_2_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_3_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_4_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|CAM 3 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|CAM 4 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|All done. ✔((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|
+|CAM 3 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|CAM 4 → ((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|All done. ✔((photo by supr2nr of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions))|
 |{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_5_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_6_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:installing_76_cams_7_by_supr2nr.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-====== Installing the Pinion Gear ======
-  * From the 79 to 85 FM, there is a timing mark on the pinion shaft and a timing mark on the pinion gear. These must line up. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3))
-|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinionshafttimemark_by_ironmick.jpg?direct&200|}}|
-|Pinion Shaft Timing Mark ((photo by IronMick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3))|
 ====== Camshaft Shims ======
   *Per Service Bulletin #M-860, the shims for the cams are no longer suggested for use by the MoCo. ((HD Service Bulletin #M860 dated November 12, 1982 pg 1))
   *Camshaft shims (Part No. 6769 and 6770) used to control maximum cam gear shaft end play have been discontinued in production engines. \\ Engineering testing has determined that an increase in the maximum allowable cam gear shaft end play does not contribute to an increase in noise. \\ Nor does it prove to be detrimental to component operation. \\ When reassembling engines after service or repair, it is not necessary to reinstall camshaft shims. \\ Cam gear shaft end play should be measured following the procedure in the latest applicable Service Manual. \\ Observe the minimum end play specifications of .005" for all cam gears, except rear intake which is .004" minimum end play. \\ It is not necessary to measure maximum cam gear shaft end play.
+  * [[techtalk:miscres:miscres05#tsb_850-899|Click here]] to go to the TSB page in the Sportsterpedia. Click on the "Y" next to M-860 to download the service bulletin.
 ====== Gearcase Cover ======
 ===== Sub-Documents =====
 * . . . [[techtalk:ih:engmech02a|Gearcase Cover Removal]]
   * Caution: Improperly intermixing components can cause loss of top end oil pressure and subsequent damage. After replacing any of these components, check top-end oil circulation to ensure proper operation.
@@ Line 125: / Line 117: @@
     - Old style gearcase covers (XLH 25227-81) and (XLS 25229-81) have a rubber plug on the lower left.
     - New style gearcase covers (XLH 25208-81) and (XLS 25209-81) replaced the rubber plug with a hex capscrew and also contains the extra mounting hole (top left).
 ====== Pinion Gear ======
 **Compatibility**
+-1985 pinion gears have 18 teeth and splines to match the splined pinion shaft. \\
+-1976 pinion gears have 4 splines. \\
+-1985 pinion gears have 6 splines. \\
 |Part#|Year Models|
@@ Line 142: / Line 135: @@
 |24061-74 (black)|:::|
+Click on any pic below to enlarge: \\
+|  1957-1976 Pinion Gear. ((photo courtesy of Ebay seller, Evil Genius M/C Parts. [[https://www.ebay.com/str/evilgeniusmcparts?_trksid=p2047675.l2563|Link to Ebay Store]] ))  ||
+|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinion_gear_pic2_24011-37_by_evilgeniushd1936.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinion_gear_pic1_24011-37_by_evilgeniushd1936.jpg?direct&300|}}|
+|1977-1985 Pinion Shaft Timing Mark ((photo by IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead/page3?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3))|
+|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinionshafttimemark_by_ironmick.jpg?direct&200|}}|
+|  1977-1985 Pinion Gear (24057-74) ((photos courtesy of Ebay seller, Robison Motorcycles [[https://www.ebay.com/str/robisonmotorcycles?_trksid=p2047675.l2563|Link to Ebay Store]] ))  ||  1977-1985 Pinion Gear (24056-74) App. Dims ((photos courtesy of Ebay seller, Robison Motorcycles [[https://www.ebay.com/str/robisonmotorcycles?_trksid=p2047675.l2563|Link to Ebay Store]] ))  |
+|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinion_gear_24057-74_pic2_by_robisonmotorcycles.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinion_gear_24057-74_pic1_by_robisonmotorcycles.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:pinion_gear_24056-74_app_dims_by_robison_motorcycles.jpg?direct&300|}}|
+===== Pinion Gear Fit on Shaft =====
+==== 1957-1976 gear ====
+These are OD measurements of 3 OEM pinion shafts as measured by needspeed (.7844", .7840" and .7840"). ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/205118-pinion-gear-fit-1968-xlch#post4631012)) \\
+Comments by Dr Dick; \\
+Installing a tight gear: If you tap the gear on the shaft you are tapping on your flywheel assembly in a direction not supported by anything. NOT recommended. \\
+You should utilize the 5/16"-24 left hand threads tapped in the pinion shaft to counteract installing force (press it in). \\
+The 1957-1976 pinion gear needs to be a tight fit and was a factory press fit. However, it's a common problem to find them loose on a used engine. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/113036-pinion-gear?t=1072235)) \\
+The trick in selecting the right fit part during assembly. The gear is supposed to be "size for size" with the major diameter of the shaft splines. \\
+The "press" actually is between the sides of 1 male shaft spline and it's matching female spline in gear. \\
+There is 1 bigger spline so the gear can index for cam timing. The press spline is the one opposite the bigger one. \\
+The bad news is the shaft wears before the gear. The XL gear is beefier where the pump drive gear hits the back of the pinion gear. \\
+It's beefier because HD also had these failures. \\
+However, leaving the gear loose makes you 1 of 80% of Ironhead riders. Worse side effect is non stop "tappet noise". \\
+It can be heard even just pushing the motor over with kicker. \\
+It's usually not "destructive" problem to leave it as is and you can't use an adhesive to "glue" the pinion gear on. \\
+(1) - A loose gear doesn't mess with breather timing too much. A correctly positioned gear sits .312" above the gasket surface. ((Dr Dick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/147814-pinion-gear-questions#post3152926)) \\ The cover bushing face sits .312" below gasket surface. So the gear clears the bushing by 1 gasket thickness. \\ A loose gear rides on the bushing face. There is virtually little breather timing difference between the tight position and the loose one. \\ A shim between gears can make up for the loose position. This shim mustn't self destruct and get caught in cam train. \\
+(2) - A loose gear will make a valve tapping type noise. No mechanical problems, just a tad noisy. Looser = noisier. \\
+(3) - The gear press isn't diametrical. Its lateral. When loose both gear and shaft wear. \\ When a loose gear is removed you will see the wear on shaft spline flanks. \\
+{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:1957-1976_pinion_gear_press_fit_pic1_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&400|}} ((photo by Dr Dick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/147814-pinion-gear-questions#post3152926)) \\
+) Bikes using stock valve springs can use a 45" flat head gear to regain some fit. \\ I have done this many times. Probably 50 times. \\
+These gears are OEM WWII surplus (-29 pn). Many times marketed as XL but they are not the real XL gear. The real xl gears have been obsolete for decades. \\
+**Warning**: I also had two 45" gear failures. Both big bore strokers. Both heavy springs and cams. Both bikes ridden extremely hard. \\
+Both gears very tightly fitted to unworn shafts. Broken pinion gears make a serious mess of your motor. $$$$ \\
+Worst case scenario, you will be looking at new cylinders, pistons, heads, valves, guides, pushrods, cams and cam cover. You don't wanna go there. \\
+I suggest never to use the 45" gears on unworn shafts. Or with cams that require heavy springs. \\
+{{:techtalk:ih:engmech:1957-1976_pinion_gear_press_fit_pic2_by_dr_dick.jpg?direct&400|}}
+==== 1977-1985 Gear ====
+The 79-85 pinion gear is a slip fit and slides up on a timing mark on the pinion shaft and corresponding to a timing mark on the pinion gear. \\
+These must line up. ((IronMick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead/page3?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3))
 ====== Tappets (Lifters) ======
@@ Line 148: / Line 183: @@
 ====== Installing Tappets ======
-When installing the tappets, the valve may be recessed in the head a bit. ((Iron Mick of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2077007&page=2)) \\
+When installing the tappets, the valve may be recessed in the head a bit. ((Iron Mick of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/52923-how-to-install-cam-gears-in-your-ironhead/page3?t=239641&highlight=cam+positions&page=3)) \\
 You can gently lever up on the pushrod to allow it to pop in the tappet cup. \\
 Just be sure you have some free play remaining once it is in the cup and before clearance is adjusted. \\

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