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techtalk:ih:oil03q [2021/11/11 00:29] hippysmack [77-85 Oil Pump General Wear and Damage Issues] |
techtalk:ih:oil03q [2024/05/07 20:31] hippysmack [Damaged Pump Hosing Roll Pin] |
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| **Note: Any time there is a question about the oiling system, FIRST MAKE SURE THERE IS OIL RETURNING TO THE OIL TANK**. \\ | **Note: Any time there is a question about the oiling system, FIRST MAKE SURE THERE IS OIL RETURNING TO THE OIL TANK**. \\ | ||
| If there is no oil returning, do not run the engine any longer until you've discovered why that is. \\ | If there is no oil returning, do not run the engine any longer until you've discovered why that is. \\ | ||
| - | Seeing oil returning to the tank is usually a good thing. It verifies that the return side of the pump is working. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1974975&page=13)) \\ | + | Seeing oil returning to the tank is usually a good thing. It verifies that the return side of the pump is working. ((Hopper of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/183572-oil-light-flickering-at-55mph/page13?t=1974975&page=13)) \\ |
| (which verifies the drive gear that drives the shaft that drives both pumps is working) \\ | (which verifies the drive gear that drives the shaft that drives both pumps is working) \\ | ||
| On the old gear pumps, it is a pretty good indicator that oil is coming out, so oil must be going in. \\ | On the old gear pumps, it is a pretty good indicator that oil is coming out, so oil must be going in. \\ | ||
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| * **Gerotors can crack but still work to a point**. \\ That point may be where it finally wears out the pump housing to gerotor OD clearance thus delivering less oil to the motor. \\ There is no spec for gerotor to housing clearance. \\ But even hairline cracks in a gerotor will allow it to expand when hot. \\ This will eat away at the housing bore, heat up the pump and internals causing damage to other pump parts as well. \\ Cracked gerotors will also produce less oil pressure. | * **Gerotors can crack but still work to a point**. \\ That point may be where it finally wears out the pump housing to gerotor OD clearance thus delivering less oil to the motor. \\ There is no spec for gerotor to housing clearance. \\ But even hairline cracks in a gerotor will allow it to expand when hot. \\ This will eat away at the housing bore, heat up the pump and internals causing damage to other pump parts as well. \\ Cracked gerotors will also produce less oil pressure. | ||
| * **Gearshaft pins can shear off, stopping either the feed side or return side or even both from turning**. \\ The solid pins in the side of the gearshaft are responsible for turning the gerotors. \\ The pins will wear and sometimes they will shear off. Each gerotor set has it's own pin. \\ So it's possible for the pin on the return side to shear with the pin on the feed side staying in tact or vice-versa. \\ So you could have feed oil to the motor but no oil return to the tank or vice-versa. \\ Always check for oil returning to the tank when diagnosing any suspected oiling issues (or any time after checking the oil for that matter). \\ Never check oil level without the motor being up to operating temp. \\ So before you shut the motor down to check the oil, have a look in the tank to verify that oil is returning. | * **Gearshaft pins can shear off, stopping either the feed side or return side or even both from turning**. \\ The solid pins in the side of the gearshaft are responsible for turning the gerotors. \\ The pins will wear and sometimes they will shear off. Each gerotor set has it's own pin. \\ So it's possible for the pin on the return side to shear with the pin on the feed side staying in tact or vice-versa. \\ So you could have feed oil to the motor but no oil return to the tank or vice-versa. \\ Always check for oil returning to the tank when diagnosing any suspected oiling issues (or any time after checking the oil for that matter). \\ Never check oil level without the motor being up to operating temp. \\ So before you shut the motor down to check the oil, have a look in the tank to verify that oil is returning. | ||
| - | * **The roll pin in the oil pump housing can shear or pull out**. \\ This may be due to foreign matter in the feed or return cavities. \\ The feed gerotors are already under pressure due to the spring washer design alone. \\ Any foreign objects that enter the pump can increase the pressure against the outer plate. \\ From the return side, it can push the inner plate toward the feed side. From the feed side, it'll create more pressure on the feed side only. \\ If the extra pressure is enough to grab and spin the plate hard enough, that could be enough to knock the pin out of it's hole in the housing. \\ If the roll pin comes out, it will cause damage to the oil pump. \\ If it gets lodged between the inner and outer gerotors, it'll most likely crack the outer piece (weaker of the two pieces). \\ If it gets under the feed gerotors, it'll get dragged across the gerotor surface in the cover. \\ This will end up in scratches on the machined surface and lower oil pressure from the pump due to the scratches. \\ With the roll pin out, the outer plate under pressure can spin and wallow out the feed bore in the housing around the plate. | ||
| + | |||
| + | ====== Damaged Pump Housing Roll Pin ====== | ||
| + | A roll pin is a spring, that's what keeps it in place. It's not solid because it's NOT supposed to shear. ((kitabel of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/203361-oil-pump-split-pin-removal)) \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | The roll pin in the oil pump housing can be damaged (by the parts in the pump getting in a bind) or by a previous hamfisted pump assembly. The pin can also be punished by the divider plates enough to wallow the hole it's in and/or damaging the hole enough to loosen the pin. This may be due to foreign matter in the feed or return cavities. Or the pin can be damaged from trying to remove it. \\ | ||
| + | The gerotors are already under pressure due to the spring washer design between the inner and outer divider plates. \\ | ||
| + | The hole in the center of the divider plates is off center. The roll pin locates the plates. \\ | ||
| + | The roll pin shouldn't see any shear force. | ||
| + | |||
| + | The scavenge gerotor is not quite as tall as the "shelf" where the inner plate sits. \\ | ||
| + | Normally, there is a slight gap between the return gerotor set and the inner plate. Inner plate sits against the shelf, not the return gerotors. \\ | ||
| + | When you button up the pump and the spring washer tightens the turning of the gearshaft, it's tightening against the feed gerotors, not return. \\ | ||
| + | So the return side should be free to move up and down with RPM and float off the plate. \\ | ||
| + | The plate, wanting to turn, would be considered shear force on the housing roll pin. \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | Any foreign objects that enter the pump can increase the pressure against the plates to move. \\ | ||
| + | Any increased pressure may be enough to grab and spin the plate(s) hard enough to damage the pin or knock it out of it's hole in the housing and/or break the area of the hole for the pin. If the roll pin comes out, it will cause damage to the oil pump. If it gets lodged between the inner and outer gerotors, it'll most likely crack the outer piece (weaker of the two pieces). If it gets under the gerotors, it'll get dragged across the gerotor surface in the pump housing or cover. This will end up in scratches on the machined surface and lower oil pressure from the pump due to the scratches. With the roll pin out, the outer plate, under pressure, can spin and wallow out the feed bore in the housing around the plate. \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | Possible ways to remove the roll pin. \\ | ||
| + | - You can try a side dike wire cutter and a little electrical freeze spray on the aluminum. | ||
| + | - You could try running a small tap into the roll pin to cut threads for a small screw, then screw the bolt into the center. \\ Once the bolt hits bottom of the hole, it may push the pin up and out or at least loosen the pin. ((Andy Hog of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/203361-oil-pump-split-pin-removal)) | ||
| + | - You may or may not need to cut the buggered part off, but you could try to fill the pin with oil and insert a close fitting punch into the hole. The hit the punch with a hammer. The hammer blow may move the pin upward. ((sungod of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/203361-oil-pump-split-pin-removal)) | ||
| + | - This is tedious but would work, if done properly and with a steady hand. \\ This method may also be used if the existing hole is broken out or the is wallowed to where a new pin would not tighten up to the existing hole. You could carefully cut the old pin flush with a Dremil tool, leave the old pin where it is and install a new pin elsewhere. Note: if you drill a new pin hole you must cut new slots in the 2 plates that the pin locates. ((needspeed of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/203361-oil-pump-split-pin-removal/page2)) You can't rotate the plates into a different position because the hole in the plates that the shaft goes through is not exactly in the middle (off centered). | ||
| + | * First, remove the guts inside and install both divider plates over the old pin to locate them properly. Then drill a small hole (smaller than the pin hole) thru the top plate, thru to the bottom plate and stop when it is dimpled by the drill bit. Remove the plates and finish drilling the second plate. Then use a Dremil tool or file to cut a slot from edge of plate to hole (on ea plate) | ||
| + | * Reinstall both plates and drill thru the new slots in both to make a dimple in the pump housing, remove plates. | ||
| + | * Drill hole in pump housing to depth of new pin (correct bore size for new pin). \\ It's good to have an index drill bit set (especially for smaller bits). Most drill bits will wallow a hole bigger than what it is written on the bit. Start with a slightly smaller bit than (projected installed OD of the pin dia) into the plates and just enough into the housing to make a dot. Then pull it back apart and square up the housing using the same drill bit. Measure it and drill with bigger bit if needed for the pin. If you drill too wide, the pin won't stay. Roll pins are sized by the dia of the hole needed (1/8" roll pin for 1/8" hole) but the pin will measure bigger than that. Just need to make sure the hole doesn't wallow. | ||
| + | * Use a metal cutting blade on a Dremil cutting tool to cut the old pin flush with the "shelf" in the pump housing. Make sure there are no splinters left on the existing pin (needs to be flush to the shelf it sits on) and the shelf has no gouges that would push on the divider plates when installed. | ||
| + | * Blow out the new hole with compressed air, press the new roll pin into the new hole and you're done. | ||
| + | |||
| + | Generally bad ideas for removing the pin. | ||
| + | * Vise Grips will most likely pull off the pin and damage it further, but more importantly damage the pump housing. | ||
| + | * Heat will most likely expand the aluminum around the pin, squeezing it harder around the pin. | ||
| + | |||
| + | The roll pin below was removed using electrical side cutters by XLF member, billeuze. ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/ironhead-sportster-motorcycle-talk-1957-1985/203361-oil-pump-split-pin-removal/page2)) \\ | ||
| + | Carefully protect the base and sides of the pump body. \\ | ||
| + | Odd parts were put inside the pump for a nice height for a fulcrum for the side cutters. \\ | ||
| + | I squeezed and pried it out. It took 4 or five pries to walk it all the way out. ((photos by billeuze)\\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | {{:techtalk:ih:oil:1977-e1983_sportster_oil_pump_roll_pin_removal_pic1_by_billeuze.jpg?direct&400|}} {{:techtalk:ih:oil:1977-e1983_sportster_oil_pump_roll_pin_removal_pic2_by_billeuze.jpg?direct&400|}} \\ | ||
| + | |||
| + | {{:techtalk:ih:oil:1977-e1983_sportster_oil_pump_roll_pin_removal_pic3_by_billeuze.jpg?direct&400|}} {{:techtalk:ih:oil:1977-e1983_sportster_oil_pump_roll_pin_removal_pic4_by_billeuze.jpg?direct&400|}} \\ | ||
