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techtalk:ref:susp07 [2018/06/03 22:58] hippysmack [The 7 Pages of Suspension (parts 1 and 2)] |
techtalk:ref:susp07 [2024/01/20 22:22] (current) hippysmack |
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| - | ====== REF: Suspension - Sub-05A ====== | + | |
| + | ====== REF: Suspension ====== | ||
| ====== The 7 Pages of Suspension (parts 1 and 2) ====== | ====== The 7 Pages of Suspension (parts 1 and 2) ====== | ||
| - | Article by XLXR of the XLFORUM ((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=552795)), ((http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=552796&highlight=pages+suspension)) ((Also, thanks to bgavin for bringing this article to our attention)) \\ The 7 Pages of Suspension relates primarily to rubber mount bikes up to the year the cartridge suspension was started. ((XLXR)) \\ Additional note, apparently, Works Suspension went out of business in 2017. I do not know any recent information. ((XLXR http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2063843&highlight=pages&page=2)) | + | Article by XLXR of the XLFORUM ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/77259-the-first-7-pages-of-suspension-from-xlxr?t=552795)), ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/77260-the-second-7-pages-of-suspension-from-xlxr?t=552796&highlight=pages+suspension)) ((Also, thanks to bgavin for bringing this article to our attention)) \\ The 7 Pages of Suspension was originally created primarily for rubber mount bikes up to the year the cartridge suspension was started. ((XLXR)) \\ Additional note, apparently, Works Suspension went out of business in 2017. I do not know any recent information. ((XLXR https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/192640-progressively-worse/page2?t=2063843&highlight=pages&page=2)) |
| - | ====== Index ====== | + | |
| - | [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#first_7_pages_of_suspension|First 7 pages]]: | + | In the discussion below, you will find information on the various elements of a good suspension. Much of the information is applicable beyond the rubbermount specific models. |
| + | |||
| + | \\ | ||
| + | ===== Index ===== | ||
| + | [[techtalk:ref:susp07#first_7_pages_of_suspension|First 7 pages]]: | ||
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#tire_pressure|Tire Pressure]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#tire_pressure|Tire Pressure]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#shock_preload|Shock Preload]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#shock_preload|Shock Preload]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#rider_sag_and_preload_of_forks_and_shocks|Rider Sag and Preload of Forks and Shocks]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#rider_sag_and_preload_of_forks_and_shocks|Rider Sag and Preload of Forks and Shocks]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#fork_stiction|Fork Stiction]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#fork_stiction|Fork Stiction]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#chassis_pitch|Chassis Pitch]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#chassis_pitch|Chassis Pitch]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#shock_spring_rate|Shock Spring Rates]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#shock_spring_rate|Shock Spring Rates]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#how_to_select_a_shock|How to Select a Shock]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#how_to_select_a_shock|How to Select a Shock]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#my_impressions_of_different_shocks|My Impressions of Different Shocks]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#my_impressions_of_different_shocks|My Impressions of Different Shocks]] |
| - | [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#second_7_pages_of_suspension|Second 7 pages]]: | + | [[techtalk:ref:susp07#second_7_pages_of_suspension|Second 7 pages]]: |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#fork_spring_rates|Fork Spring Rates]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#fork_spring_rates|Fork Spring Rates]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#works_dual_rate_fork_springs|Works Dual Rate Fork Springs]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#works_dual_rate_fork_springs|Works Dual Rate Fork Springs]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#lowering_a_bike|Lowering a Bike]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#lowering_a_bike|Lowering a Bike]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#ricor_intiminators_vs_race_tech_emulators|Ricor Intiminators vs Race Tech Emulators]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#ricor_intiminators_vs_race_tech_emulators|Ricor Intiminators vs Race Tech Emulators]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#fork_oil_viscosity_oil_height_changing_oil|Fork Oil Viscosity, Oil Height, Changing Fork Oil]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#fork_oil_viscosity_oil_height_changing_oil|Fork Oil Viscosity, Oil Height, Changing Fork Oil]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#air_forks|Air Forks]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#air_forks|Air Forks]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#loosening_the_drive_belt_and_aligning_rear_tire|Loosening Drive Belt and Aligning Rear Tire]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#loosening_the_drive_belt_and_aligning_rear_tire|Loosening Drive Belt and Aligning Rear Tire]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#deciding_how_to_set_up_your_bike|Deciding How to Set Up Your Bike]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#deciding_how_to_set_up_your_bike|Deciding How to Set Up Your Bike]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#the_famous_wobble_thread|The Famous Wobble Thread (link and summary)]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#the_famous_wobble_thread|The Famous Wobble Thread (link and summary)]] |
| - | * [[techtalk:ref:susp05a#more_links_to_xlf_suspension_threads|More Links to XLF Suspension Threads]] | + | * [[techtalk:ref:susp07#more_links_to_xlf_suspension_threads|More Links to XLF Suspension Threads]] |
| \\ | \\ | ||
| ====== First 7 Pages of Suspension ====== | ====== First 7 Pages of Suspension ====== | ||
| + | <font 12px/Arial, , ;;#ffff80;;#C000ff>──────────────────────────────</font> | ||
| * I will start with the simple things and work into the more complex. If I mention something you don’t recognize, it is probably explained in more detail at a later point. Naturally, you can google any terms for more information. Wikepedia and the websites of the shock companies and Sport Rider have lots of good information. The information is based on experience with my 2006 Roadster. I weigh 260 lbs. | * I will start with the simple things and work into the more complex. If I mention something you don’t recognize, it is probably explained in more detail at a later point. Naturally, you can google any terms for more information. Wikepedia and the websites of the shock companies and Sport Rider have lots of good information. The information is based on experience with my 2006 Roadster. I weigh 260 lbs. | ||
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| * **The FXDX shocks on my Roadster** were a good example how excessively short transition zone and excessively stiff final spring rate result in handling problems. I weigh 260 lbs, the initial rate of the FXDX springs matched my weight pretty good and absorbed small bumps very well. However, the transition to the final rate was so abrupt, and the final spring rate was so stiff, it felt very harsh over medium size and larger bumps. This became a serious problem when hitting a series of medium sized bumps while leaned over in a corner. There was enough weight on the spring to compress it through the initial part of the spring just fine. However, there wasn’t enough weight to compress it into the final rate and the back tire would skip over the bumps and loose contact with the road. With the FXDX shocks, I was using only the initial part of the travel, and rarely got it into the final part of the travel. I have no idea if there are different FXDX shocks from different years with different springs. | * **The FXDX shocks on my Roadster** were a good example how excessively short transition zone and excessively stiff final spring rate result in handling problems. I weigh 260 lbs, the initial rate of the FXDX springs matched my weight pretty good and absorbed small bumps very well. However, the transition to the final rate was so abrupt, and the final spring rate was so stiff, it felt very harsh over medium size and larger bumps. This became a serious problem when hitting a series of medium sized bumps while leaned over in a corner. There was enough weight on the spring to compress it through the initial part of the spring just fine. However, there wasn’t enough weight to compress it into the final rate and the back tire would skip over the bumps and loose contact with the road. With the FXDX shocks, I was using only the initial part of the travel, and rarely got it into the final part of the travel. I have no idea if there are different FXDX shocks from different years with different springs. | ||
| * **The Whittlebeast Hybrid shocks**, a Roadster shock body with a Custom spring (and spacers) were the opposite. The initial rate was pretty good, and the transition range was fairly long. Therefore, small and medium sized bumps were absorbed and provided a smooth ride. | * **The Whittlebeast Hybrid shocks**, a Roadster shock body with a Custom spring (and spacers) were the opposite. The initial rate was pretty good, and the transition range was fairly long. Therefore, small and medium sized bumps were absorbed and provided a smooth ride. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=93767|Whittlebeast's low stops and handles like a real sport bike]]. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/40996-low-handles-and-stops-like-a-real-sport-touring-bike?t=93767|Whittlebeast's low stops and handles like a real sport bike]]. |
| * Be sure to understand the part of putting the spacers under the springs to keep them from rubbing on the shock body. | * Be sure to understand the part of putting the spacers under the springs to keep them from rubbing on the shock body. | ||
| * The WB Hybrids prove cheap shocks with the proper spring rate and dampening curves are far better than expensive shocks with improper spring rates and bad dampening curves. Unfortunately, I was just a bit too heavy for the springs and they would bottom out every now and then. 220 lbs is about the max solo rider weight that both the WB Hybrids, and the standard 75/120 spring used on Progressive’s 12.5” and longer shocks, can handle without problems. | * The WB Hybrids prove cheap shocks with the proper spring rate and dampening curves are far better than expensive shocks with improper spring rates and bad dampening curves. Unfortunately, I was just a bit too heavy for the springs and they would bottom out every now and then. 220 lbs is about the max solo rider weight that both the WB Hybrids, and the standard 75/120 spring used on Progressive’s 12.5” and longer shocks, can handle without problems. | ||
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| * **My Road King 12-3/4” shocks** have 54565-97A, and another pair C on the end. The oil will drain out through the port for the air fitting if it is not capped off during shipping. The only way to tell how much oil is in them is to weigh them. Mine weighed 5 lbs, 2 oz’s. It is possible to change the oil in the shocks. I changed to 5w in attempt to soften them up, it helped a bit, but not enough to say it is worth the work. | * **My Road King 12-3/4” shocks** have 54565-97A, and another pair C on the end. The oil will drain out through the port for the air fitting if it is not capped off during shipping. The only way to tell how much oil is in them is to weigh them. Mine weighed 5 lbs, 2 oz’s. It is possible to change the oil in the shocks. I changed to 5w in attempt to soften them up, it helped a bit, but not enough to say it is worth the work. | ||
| * If you add oil, you must be very careful to not overfill the shocks. That could cause a hydro lock and blow them apart. Not something I have seen, only heard about. At the very least, you should put only one shock at a time on the bike with the air fitting removed, pump it several times to bleed all the air out, and then bottom it out so it will blow out all the excessive oil. Even then this is way too much oil because you will not have an air chamber on top of the oil level. | * If you add oil, you must be very careful to not overfill the shocks. That could cause a hydro lock and blow them apart. Not something I have seen, only heard about. At the very least, you should put only one shock at a time on the bike with the air fitting removed, pump it several times to bleed all the air out, and then bottom it out so it will blow out all the excessive oil. Even then this is way too much oil because you will not have an air chamber on top of the oil level. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=273913|More discussion of RK air shocks]]. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/55401-rk-shock-question?t=273913|More discussion of RK air shocks]]. |
| {{:techtalk:ref:susp:rk_air_shocks_54565_-_97_a_cut_apart_by_xlxr.jpg?direct&400|}} | {{:techtalk:ref:susp:rk_air_shocks_54565_-_97_a_cut_apart_by_xlxr.jpg?direct&400|}} | ||
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| * **I am currently using 13.5” WP 3 Way shocks**. WP is the European company, not Works Performance. 3 Way refers to having adjustable high and low speed compression dampening and rebound dampening. I had to send them back twice to get the dampening curves changed to work well. Even then, they sat on the shelf for over a year because I liked the WB Hybrids better. My 260 lbs ended up being too heavy for the 97/142 lbs/in spring, too light for the 154/228 lb/in spring. | * **I am currently using 13.5” WP 3 Way shocks**. WP is the European company, not Works Performance. 3 Way refers to having adjustable high and low speed compression dampening and rebound dampening. I had to send them back twice to get the dampening curves changed to work well. Even then, they sat on the shelf for over a year because I liked the WB Hybrids better. My 260 lbs ended up being too heavy for the 97/142 lbs/in spring, too light for the 154/228 lb/in spring. | ||
| * **Then the Ricor Intiminators came along** for the forks. The Intiminators softened up the 154/228 lb/in springs enough to ride smoothly enough over small to medium size bumps to be comfortable riding all day. These high end shocks really start to work well when pushing the limits of high speeds and rough roads. Far better than any other shock I have tried. | * **Then the Ricor Intiminators came along** for the forks. The Intiminators softened up the 154/228 lb/in springs enough to ride smoothly enough over small to medium size bumps to be comfortable riding all day. These high end shocks really start to work well when pushing the limits of high speeds and rough roads. Far better than any other shock I have tried. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=509806|Harley 2 up shocks for a Nightster]] I haven’t tried these, but rider reports seem good. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/efi-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2007-and-up/73334-report-on-two-up-shocks-for-nightster?t=509806|Harley 2 up shocks for a Nightster]] I haven’t tried these, but rider reports seem good. |
| * **The very first pair of shocks I bought were Progressive 440’s**. The were hydro-locking and felt like a hard tail. This was before I figured out about loosening the drive belt. Maybe that was the problem. I have read one other report where an over tightened drive belt caused the 440’s to ride strange, and loosening the belt let them work better. | * **The very first pair of shocks I bought were Progressive 440’s**. The were hydro-locking and felt like a hard tail. This was before I figured out about loosening the drive belt. Maybe that was the problem. I have read one other report where an over tightened drive belt caused the 440’s to ride strange, and loosening the belt let them work better. | ||
| * **I also tried the Works Performance Pro Racers**. I sent them back 2 or 3 times. They had a hard hit in them and Works only moved the hit deeper into the shock travel. I gave up on them. | * **I also tried the Works Performance Pro Racers**. I sent them back 2 or 3 times. They had a hard hit in them and Works only moved the hit deeper into the shock travel. I gave up on them. | ||
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| * **The best shock I have ever ridden on was a Penske 3 Way shock** on a Ducati Monster. I try hard not to laugh when someone says how good Progressive 412’s are. | * **The best shock I have ever ridden on was a Penske 3 Way shock** on a Ducati Monster. I try hard not to laugh when someone says how good Progressive 412’s are. | ||
| + | \\ | ||
| ====== Second 7 Pages of Suspension ====== | ====== Second 7 Pages of Suspension ====== | ||
| + | |||
| + | <font 12px/Arial, , ;;#ffff80;;#C000ff>──────────────────────────────</font> | ||
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| * This is the most flexible spring made for rubbermount XL’s. It can work in the long suspension of a Roadster and short suspension of a Nightster simply by changing the length of the crossover spacer. By test riding with different crossover spacer lengths, I learned more about how spring rate effects handling than anything else I have done. | * This is the most flexible spring made for rubbermount XL’s. It can work in the long suspension of a Roadster and short suspension of a Nightster simply by changing the length of the crossover spacer. By test riding with different crossover spacer lengths, I learned more about how spring rate effects handling than anything else I have done. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=446320|Sportytrace's thread on her 08 1200 Nightster with Ricor Intiminators and Works Dual Rate fork spring kit]]. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/67563-08-1200n-with-intiminators-works-dual-rate-fork-springs?t=446320|Sportytrace's thread on her 08 1200 Nightster with Ricor Intiminators and Works Dual Rate fork spring kit]]. |
| * This link has pictures of how to remove and replace fork springs, comparing stock fork spring with the Works, and showing how the crossover spacer fits in the shorter spring. You can see how the coils are wound differently at either ends of the stock spring to help you understand how reversing the spring can change oil level because more or less coils are under the oil level. It also describes how she is fine tuning the forks and suspension. It also has cbnightster's description of putting Low damper tubes in the Nightster forks to gain 3/4" travel, which is huge. | * This link has pictures of how to remove and replace fork springs, comparing stock fork spring with the Works, and showing how the crossover spacer fits in the shorter spring. You can see how the coils are wound differently at either ends of the stock spring to help you understand how reversing the spring can change oil level because more or less coils are under the oil level. It also describes how she is fine tuning the forks and suspension. It also has cbnightster's description of putting Low damper tubes in the Nightster forks to gain 3/4" travel, which is huge. | ||
| * Works gives you 3 crossover spacers of different lengths which fit inside the shorter spring. I test rode with different spacer lengths until I found I liked a 2 1/4" length best for my Roadster. Works say you can use different length spacers in either fork to get a triple rate spring effect. But I didn't find that necessary. | * Works gives you 3 crossover spacers of different lengths which fit inside the shorter spring. I test rode with different spacer lengths until I found I liked a 2 1/4" length best for my Roadster. Works say you can use different length spacers in either fork to get a triple rate spring effect. But I didn't find that necessary. | ||
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| * Just because you have the same length of spring or preload spacer sticking out of the forks before you put the caps back on, does not mean you will have the same rider sag as your buddy, (although it should be close). You must check you own rider sag. | * Just because you have the same length of spring or preload spacer sticking out of the forks before you put the caps back on, does not mean you will have the same rider sag as your buddy, (although it should be close). You must check you own rider sag. | ||
| * Do not assume the fork oil height is correct. Measure it. Make sure you pump the forks enough to get all the oil out before refilling it. Make sure you pump the forks again after you refill it to bleed out all the air. Recheck how much fork travel you are using by test riding. If you are not using all available travel, you may have too much oil in it. If you suck out 1/4 to 1/2 oz oil, and you gain travel, you had too much oil in it. | * Do not assume the fork oil height is correct. Measure it. Make sure you pump the forks enough to get all the oil out before refilling it. Make sure you pump the forks again after you refill it to bleed out all the air. Recheck how much fork travel you are using by test riding. If you are not using all available travel, you may have too much oil in it. If you suck out 1/4 to 1/2 oz oil, and you gain travel, you had too much oil in it. | ||
| - | |||
| ===== Lowering a Bike ===== | ===== Lowering a Bike ===== | ||
| - | |||
| - | |||
| * People like the [[http://www.tamarackmw.com/|Tamarack lowering blocks]]. | * People like the [[http://www.tamarackmw.com/|Tamarack lowering blocks]]. | ||
| * Link to the [[https://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/updates/3055-110HarleyForkLowerKit.pdf|Progressive web site with picture of lowering springs and damper rods]]. | * Link to the [[https://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/updates/3055-110HarleyForkLowerKit.pdf|Progressive web site with picture of lowering springs and damper rods]]. | ||
| * Link to [[https://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/PSI2009Catalog.pdf|Progressive's catalog (see page 28 for color pictures of Drop In Lowering Springs in cut away forks)]]. | * Link to [[https://www.progressivesuspension.com/pdfs/PSI2009Catalog.pdf|Progressive's catalog (see page 28 for color pictures of Drop In Lowering Springs in cut away forks)]]. | ||
| - | * An XLF link discussing [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=433127|Progressive's Drop In Fork Spring kit]]. | + | * An XLF link discussing [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/66625-progressive-drop-in-front-fork-lowering-kit?t=433127|Progressive's Drop In Fork Spring kit]]. |
| * Some people need to lower the bike to be able to get their feet on the ground. Others want to lower their bike to attain a certain look. Either way, lowering the bike causes 2 problems. First problem is the reduced cornering clearance. The second is limiting total travel. With limited travel, it becomes very important to set up all other aspects of suspension tuning correctly because there is little room for error. | * Some people need to lower the bike to be able to get their feet on the ground. Others want to lower their bike to attain a certain look. Either way, lowering the bike causes 2 problems. First problem is the reduced cornering clearance. The second is limiting total travel. With limited travel, it becomes very important to set up all other aspects of suspension tuning correctly because there is little room for error. | ||
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| * However, IF the spring has long transition zone, IF the initial and final spring rates match rider weight, and IF the rider goes slow enough and IF he avoids major bumpy roads, it is possible to get a reasonable ride. I guess I should add another IF. IF the rider has no clue what good suspension really is, anything is better than stock. | * However, IF the spring has long transition zone, IF the initial and final spring rates match rider weight, and IF the rider goes slow enough and IF he avoids major bumpy roads, it is possible to get a reasonable ride. I guess I should add another IF. IF the rider has no clue what good suspension really is, anything is better than stock. | ||
| * Sportytrace is a 140 lb rider who needed to keep her Nightster low so she could keep her feet on the ground. We accomplished this by using the 13.5” 1200 S shocks which have a light 54/78 lb/in spring. The spring matched her weight, but in order to get her feet to the ground, we had to use 1” lowering blocks. This proved a very good combination for her. | * Sportytrace is a 140 lb rider who needed to keep her Nightster low so she could keep her feet on the ground. We accomplished this by using the 13.5” 1200 S shocks which have a light 54/78 lb/in spring. The spring matched her weight, but in order to get her feet to the ground, we had to use 1” lowering blocks. This proved a very good combination for her. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=164018|Sportytrace’s Nightster set up with Intiminators and lowered 1200S shocks]]. | + | * [[techtalk:evo:susp02a#s_shocks_on_a_08_1200n|Sportytrace’s Nightster set up with Intiminators and lowered 1200S shocks]]. |
| * Combining the 12-3/4” Road King air shocks with the 1” lower block is another good combination to carry a lot of weight while keeping the bike low. Be careful to not exceed the factory weight limitations of the bike itself. | * Combining the 12-3/4” Road King air shocks with the 1” lower block is another good combination to carry a lot of weight while keeping the bike low. Be careful to not exceed the factory weight limitations of the bike itself. | ||
| * There have been questions about how using lowering blocks affect the spring rate. The answer is it all depends on too many factors to predict accurately. I experimented with 1” lowering blocks. Some shocks smoothed out a little bit, others didn’t. | * There have been questions about how using lowering blocks affect the spring rate. The answer is it all depends on too many factors to predict accurately. I experimented with 1” lowering blocks. Some shocks smoothed out a little bit, others didn’t. | ||
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| ===== Ricor Intiminators vs Race Tech Emulators ===== | ===== Ricor Intiminators vs Race Tech Emulators ===== | ||
| - | |||
| * Both are valve bodies which you install between the damper rod and fork spring. Both control oil flow and compression damping, but in dramatically different ways with dramatically different effects on the ride and handling of the bike. | * Both are valve bodies which you install between the damper rod and fork spring. Both control oil flow and compression damping, but in dramatically different ways with dramatically different effects on the ride and handling of the bike. | ||
| * To give you better idea how forks provide damping, there is a picture of stock damper rods from a Nightster and a Low a few paragraphs below, post 289 of the Intimidator thread. The large holes to the right are the compression damping holes. As the forks compress, oil is forced through the compression holes. The holes resist the oil flow and that provides compression damping. Drill the holes larger, more oil flows and less resistance is created, and the forks can compress faster in response to road bumps. | * To give you better idea how forks provide damping, there is a picture of stock damper rods from a Nightster and a Low a few paragraphs below, post 289 of the Intimidator thread. The large holes to the right are the compression damping holes. As the forks compress, oil is forced through the compression holes. The holes resist the oil flow and that provides compression damping. Drill the holes larger, more oil flows and less resistance is created, and the forks can compress faster in response to road bumps. | ||
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| * Another big difference is the Race Tech 20w fork oil recommendation drastically increases rebound damping, but the Ricor 5w fork oil recommendation reduces rebound damping. | * Another big difference is the Race Tech 20w fork oil recommendation drastically increases rebound damping, but the Ricor 5w fork oil recommendation reduces rebound damping. | ||
| * This is why I constantly say the stock forks are over damped. Changing to 15w fork oil in stock forks over damps already over damped forks. | * This is why I constantly say the stock forks are over damped. Changing to 15w fork oil in stock forks over damps already over damped forks. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=423091|This is the main Intiminator thread]] on the XLF. \\ From this thread: | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer?t=423091|This is the main Intiminator thread]] on the XLF. \\ From this thread: |
| <blockquote>Shock absorbers perform two important functions and, unfortunately, they are in direct conflict with each other. We rely on shocks to stabilize our vehicles during changes in direction and while accelerating or braking (chassis motion). We also depend on shocks to provide us with a comfortable ride and to allow the suspension to respond to changes in terrain so the tires can maintain traction (wheel motion). ((paxman1)) | <blockquote>Shock absorbers perform two important functions and, unfortunately, they are in direct conflict with each other. We rely on shocks to stabilize our vehicles during changes in direction and while accelerating or braking (chassis motion). We also depend on shocks to provide us with a comfortable ride and to allow the suspension to respond to changes in terrain so the tires can maintain traction (wheel motion). ((paxman1)) | ||
| * The problem with traditional shock absorbers is that they cannot distinguish between chassis motion or wheel motion, they can only provide resistance based on relative motion between the chassis and the wheel. The resulting compromise is that traditional shocks must be tuned with a bias toward control and handling OR compliance and traction. | * The problem with traditional shock absorbers is that they cannot distinguish between chassis motion or wheel motion, they can only provide resistance based on relative motion between the chassis and the wheel. The resulting compromise is that traditional shocks must be tuned with a bias toward control and handling OR compliance and traction. | ||
| * It seems to be universally accepted that 'stiff' shocks equate to vehicle stability and handling performance, while 'soft' shocks provide better ride quality and superior traction over irregular road surfaces. As polar opposites (stiff vs. soft), the benefits of one come at the direct expense of the desirable characteristics of the other. | * It seems to be universally accepted that 'stiff' shocks equate to vehicle stability and handling performance, while 'soft' shocks provide better ride quality and superior traction over irregular road surfaces. As polar opposites (stiff vs. soft), the benefits of one come at the direct expense of the desirable characteristics of the other. | ||
| * This is a universal problem and all traditional velocity-sensitive shock absorbers fall somewhere within the spectrum between these two extremes. \\ | * This is a universal problem and all traditional velocity-sensitive shock absorbers fall somewhere within the spectrum between these two extremes. \\ | ||
| - | </blockquote> * Here is an animation of how the Intiminator works. ((animation by paxman1 of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=423091&page=6)) {{:techtalk:ref:susp:intiminator_animation_by_paxman1.gif?direct|}} \\ | + | </blockquote> * Here is an animation of how the Intiminator works. ((animation by paxman1 of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer/page6?t=423091&page=6)) {{:techtalk:ref:susp:intiminator_animation_by_paxman1.gif?direct|}} \\ |
| * However, for our bikes, the oil ports are above the moving yellow collar. If you look at the tube in the very center of the animation, near the bottom where the collar reverses direction, you can see the ports open and close as the collar moves up and down. | * However, for our bikes, the oil ports are above the moving yellow collar. If you look at the tube in the very center of the animation, near the bottom where the collar reverses direction, you can see the ports open and close as the collar moves up and down. | ||
| - | * My test rides are on posts [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1742090&postcount=136|136]], [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1744828&postcount=173|173]], [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1746646&postcount=185|185]], [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1760806&postcount=294|294]]. | + | * My test rides are on posts [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer/page10?postcount=136|136#post1396979]], [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1744828&postcount=173|173]], [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer/page13?postcount=185#post1400500|185]], [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer/page20?postcount=294#post1409861|294]]. |
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1762183&postcount=297|Post 297]] CBNightster explains how to change damper rods. He used a Low damper rod in his Nightster to get some extra travel. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer/page20?postcount=297#post1410415|Post 297]] CBNightster explains how to change damper rods. He used a Low damper rod in his Nightster to get some extra travel. |
| - | * Here is a picture of XLXR's fork cap installation clamp. ((photo by XLXR of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=423091&page=29)) {{:techtalk:ref:tools:fork_spring_compressor_by_xlxr.jpg?direct&300|}} \\ \\ (This and a few other [[techtalk:ref:tools136#fork_spring_compressing_clamp|fork compression tools]] are also in the tools section of the Sportsterpedia). \\ | + | * Here is a picture of XLXR's fork cap installation clamp. ((photo by XLXR of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/65900-front-forks-what-can-we-do-i-have-the-answer/page29?t=423091&page=29)) {{:techtalk:ref:tools:fork_spring_compressor_by_xlxr.jpg?direct&300|}} \\ \\ (This and a few other [[techtalk:ref:tools136#fork_spring_compressing_clamp|fork compression tools]] are also in the tools section of the Sportsterpedia). \\ |
| Trying to compare Intiminators to Emulators is like trying to compare a Corvette to a Chevette. | Trying to compare Intiminators to Emulators is like trying to compare a Corvette to a Chevette. | ||
| ===== Fork Oil Viscosity, Oil Height, Changing Oil ===== | ===== Fork Oil Viscosity, Oil Height, Changing Oil ===== | ||
| - | |||
| * Fork oil viscosity controls how fast the forks can move up and down in response to road bumps. Fork shaft speed is the term used to describe how fast the forks can compress and rebound. The stock fork oil viscosity is 10w. 5w reduces damping so the shaft speed increases in response to road bumps. 20w increases damping which slows the shaft speed. | * Fork oil viscosity controls how fast the forks can move up and down in response to road bumps. Fork shaft speed is the term used to describe how fast the forks can compress and rebound. The stock fork oil viscosity is 10w. 5w reduces damping so the shaft speed increases in response to road bumps. 20w increases damping which slows the shaft speed. | ||
| * Going too far in either direction can be dangerous because the wheel may loose its ability to stay in contact with the ground. It is entirely possible you could ride many miles without a problem and then hit the wrong set of bumps at the wrong time. | * Going too far in either direction can be dangerous because the wheel may loose its ability to stay in contact with the ground. It is entirely possible you could ride many miles without a problem and then hit the wrong set of bumps at the wrong time. | ||
| Line 245: | Line 250: | ||
| * When I add or change oil, I pour in an extra ½ oz. It is very important to pump the forks to get all the air out before you measure oil height. Then I use a turkey baster with a hard copper tube to put down the forks and suck out any extra. I put a plastic tie on my copper tube to set the level I want. The first time I do this, I add the factory recommended amount of oil, pump the forks, measure the distance with springs out and forks fully extended. That establishes my base level which I compare all future adjustments to. I always measure down the back side of the fork tube. | * When I add or change oil, I pour in an extra ½ oz. It is very important to pump the forks to get all the air out before you measure oil height. Then I use a turkey baster with a hard copper tube to put down the forks and suck out any extra. I put a plastic tie on my copper tube to set the level I want. The first time I do this, I add the factory recommended amount of oil, pump the forks, measure the distance with springs out and forks fully extended. That establishes my base level which I compare all future adjustments to. I always measure down the back side of the fork tube. | ||
| * Generally, you can add up to 2 oz’s extra oil for the long forks, 1 extra oz for the short forks. It is very important to establish total fork travel and use a plastic tie on the forks to ensure you can use all available travel. Too much oil can hydro lock the forks and cause seals to blow out or maybe worse. | * Generally, you can add up to 2 oz’s extra oil for the long forks, 1 extra oz for the short forks. It is very important to establish total fork travel and use a plastic tie on the forks to ensure you can use all available travel. Too much oil can hydro lock the forks and cause seals to blow out or maybe worse. | ||
| - | |||
| ===== Air Forks ===== | ===== Air Forks ===== | ||
| - | |||
| * Adding air valves to the forks has a similiar effect as adding oil to reduce bottoming. It is just another option. If you already have the tools, it is cheap and easy. Having to buy the tools makes it more expensive. | * Adding air valves to the forks has a similiar effect as adding oil to reduce bottoming. It is just another option. If you already have the tools, it is cheap and easy. Having to buy the tools makes it more expensive. | ||
| * The fork caps are so thick, you can back drill the cap from underneath to reduce how many threads you have to cut. | * The fork caps are so thick, you can back drill the cap from underneath to reduce how many threads you have to cut. | ||
| * No one knows who much air pressure can cause damage. I doubt if anybody would ever need more than 5 psi. One big advantage of air forks is they are very easy to adjust for different riding conditions. Another advantage is it makes it easier to add or remove oil with a small tube. | * No one knows who much air pressure can cause damage. I doubt if anybody would ever need more than 5 psi. One big advantage of air forks is they are very easy to adjust for different riding conditions. Another advantage is it makes it easier to add or remove oil with a small tube. | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=500980|Air for mod tutorial]]. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/72547-air-fork-mod-tutorial?t=500980|Air fork mod tutorial]]. |
| ===== Loosening the Drive Belt and Aligning Rear Tire ===== | ===== Loosening the Drive Belt and Aligning Rear Tire ===== | ||
| - | |||
| * As delivered by my dealer, the drive belt was so tight on my Roadster it would jerk the engine backwards as I rode over bumps in the road. The belt is tightest when the rear axle is in line with a line formed by the swing arm bolts and the center of the front pulley. This is because the axle is rotating on a different radius and center than the drive belt. | * As delivered by my dealer, the drive belt was so tight on my Roadster it would jerk the engine backwards as I rode over bumps in the road. The belt is tightest when the rear axle is in line with a line formed by the swing arm bolts and the center of the front pulley. This is because the axle is rotating on a different radius and center than the drive belt. | ||
| * 13.5” shocks on a Roadster move the swing arm through this point. Bikes with shorter shocks do not move though this point, however, the belt still gets tighter as it approaches full shock travel of the shorter shocks. | * 13.5” shocks on a Roadster move the swing arm through this point. Bikes with shorter shocks do not move though this point, however, the belt still gets tighter as it approaches full shock travel of the shorter shocks. | ||
| Line 263: | Line 265: | ||
| ===== Deciding How to Set Up Your Bike ===== | ===== Deciding How to Set Up Your Bike ===== | ||
| - | |||
| * If you want to get the opinions of other riders about particular suspension set ups or components, be sure to ask the right questions. Start of with rider weight, length of shocks, spring rates, preload settings, chassis pitch, how aggressive a rider is he, what type of bike he has and what kind of riding he does. Slower riders don’t need fork braces and better tires. If the guy’s weight is a lot different then yours, his opinion will not help you much. | * If you want to get the opinions of other riders about particular suspension set ups or components, be sure to ask the right questions. Start of with rider weight, length of shocks, spring rates, preload settings, chassis pitch, how aggressive a rider is he, what type of bike he has and what kind of riding he does. Slower riders don’t need fork braces and better tires. If the guy’s weight is a lot different then yours, his opinion will not help you much. | ||
| * Getting RK air shocks and adding oil and preload to the forks is by far the cheapest suspension mods. Adding air valves to the forks is next. | * Getting RK air shocks and adding oil and preload to the forks is by far the cheapest suspension mods. Adding air valves to the forks is next. | ||
| * Spending the money for Intiminators is a good place to start, especially if you think your shocks are a bit too stiff. With the Intiminators, you might be able to reduce shock preload enough to make the shocks you have comfortable. | * Spending the money for Intiminators is a good place to start, especially if you think your shocks are a bit too stiff. With the Intiminators, you might be able to reduce shock preload enough to make the shocks you have comfortable. | ||
| * If you really want to ride aggressively, you will have to add better tires, I like the Avon Venom X’s, fork brace, Intiminators with drilled out compression damping holes, Works Dual Rate springs and high end shocks. So far Ohlins are the only shock I have not heard any complaints about. However, Ricor is still working on their inertia shocks. | * If you really want to ride aggressively, you will have to add better tires, I like the Avon Venom X’s, fork brace, Intiminators with drilled out compression damping holes, Works Dual Rate springs and high end shocks. So far Ohlins are the only shock I have not heard any complaints about. However, Ricor is still working on their inertia shocks. | ||
| - | ===== The Famous Wobble Thread ===== | ||
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33294|The Famous XLF Wobble Thread]] | + | ====== The Famous Wobble Thread ====== |
| + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-era-specific-and-model-specific/rubber-mount-sportster-motorcycle-talk-2004-2006/20097-~-~wobble?t=33294|The Famous XLF Wobble Thread]] | ||
| * Common causes of wobble are bad tires, loose spokes, loose nuts or bolts on suspension components, warped wheels, misaligned rear wheel. over tightened drive belt, loose steering head bearings, rider has too tight a grip on the bars, windshields, no fork brace, front too low or rear too high creating too much forward chassis pitch, improper tire air pressure. | * Common causes of wobble are bad tires, loose spokes, loose nuts or bolts on suspension components, warped wheels, misaligned rear wheel. over tightened drive belt, loose steering head bearings, rider has too tight a grip on the bars, windshields, no fork brace, front too low or rear too high creating too much forward chassis pitch, improper tire air pressure. | ||
| * If you have wire spoked wheels, you can tap the spokes with a small wrench. If they make a ring sound, they are tight, if they make a thud sound, they are loose. Tightening spokes improperly can warp the rim, if you don't know what you're doing, take it to somebody who does. | * If you have wire spoked wheels, you can tap the spokes with a small wrench. If they make a ring sound, they are tight, if they make a thud sound, they are loose. Tightening spokes improperly can warp the rim, if you don't know what you're doing, take it to somebody who does. | ||
| - | ===== More Links to XLF Suspension Threads ===== | + | ====== More Links to XLF Suspension Threads ====== |
| - | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/70072-rubbermount-pivot-shaft-wobble-investigation?t=473423|Rubbermount pivot shaft / wobble investigation with lots of pictures]]. | |
| - | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/28685-harley-database-of-springs-and-shocks?t=47542|Harley data base of springs and shocks by Whittlebeast]]. | |
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=473423|Rubbermount pivot shaft / wobble investigation with lots of pictures]]. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/40656-fork-info-on-a-883r-with-a-144lb-rider?t=88966|Fork info on an 883R with 144 lb rider by Colinb]]. |
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47542|Harley data base of springs and shocks by Whittlebeast]]. | + | * [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/24636-an-excellent-series-of-suspension-articles?t=40821|An excellent series of suspension articles which I didn't write]]. |
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88966|Fork info on an 883R with 144 lb rider by Colinb]]. | + | * And the original [[https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/33277-it-ain-t-the-rubbermount-and-it-don-t-have-to-ride-stiff-and-handle-lousy?t=58815|It ain't the rubbermount and it don't have to ride stiff and handle lousy!!!]] thread for those who just can't get enough. |
| - | * [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40821|An excellent series of suspension articles which I didn't write]]. | + | |
| - | * And the original [[http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58815|It ain't the rubbermount and it don't have to ride stiff and handle lousy!!!]] thread for those who just can't get enough. | + | |
