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techtalk:ref:svcproc22 [2019/01/09 03:43] ixl2relax [REF: Troubleshooting - Engine - 05] |
techtalk:ref:svcproc22 [2024/01/22 05:46] hippysmack |
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| This is often referred to as TDC on Compression Stroke or TDC Compression. \\ | This is often referred to as TDC on Compression Stroke or TDC Compression. \\ | ||
| - | * The window in time where both valves are completely closed begins on the compression stroke, with the closing of the intake valve. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1717577)) | + | * The window in time where both valves are completely closed begins on the compression stroke, with the closing of the intake valve. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/160094-compression-tdc-please-help-me-find-it?t=1717577)) |
| * Both valves stay closed through the rest of the compression stroke, and then most of the following power stroke, at which point the exhaust valve opens. | * Both valves stay closed through the rest of the compression stroke, and then most of the following power stroke, at which point the exhaust valve opens. | ||
| * Compression TDC sits just about half way in between those two events, so it makes a good reference point. | * Compression TDC sits just about half way in between those two events, so it makes a good reference point. | ||
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| In terms of the piston position, there's no difference between compression TDC and overlap TDC. \\ | In terms of the piston position, there's no difference between compression TDC and overlap TDC. \\ | ||
| The piston doesn't do anything different. \\ | The piston doesn't do anything different. \\ | ||
| - | Compression TDC and exhaust (overlap) TDC are only different by virtue of what the valvetrain is doing. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1717577)) | + | Compression TDC and exhaust (overlap) TDC are only different by virtue of what the valvetrain is doing. ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/160094-compression-tdc-please-help-me-find-it?t=1717577)) |
| - | * **With the piston on TDC of the compression stroke**: (otherwise referred to as "TDC Compression") ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1717577)) | + | * **With the piston on TDC of the compression stroke**: (otherwise referred to as "TDC Compression") ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/160094-compression-tdc-please-help-me-find-it?t=1717577)) |
| * Both valves are closed. | * Both valves are closed. | ||
| * Both corresponding cams are on their base circle. | * Both corresponding cams are on their base circle. | ||
| * The cams and lifters are producing the least amount of pressure upward toward the rockers and valves. | * The cams and lifters are producing the least amount of pressure upward toward the rockers and valves. | ||
| * When the lifters bleed off their oil, there will little to no pressure toward the rockers and valves. | * When the lifters bleed off their oil, there will little to no pressure toward the rockers and valves. | ||
| - | * **With the piston on TDC of the exhaust stroke**: (otherwise referred to as "TDC Overlap") ((aswracing of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1717577)) | + | * **With the piston on TDC of the exhaust stroke**: (otherwise referred to as "TDC Overlap") ((aswracing of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-motor-engine/sportster-motorcycle-engine-conversions/160094-compression-tdc-please-help-me-find-it?t=1717577)) |
| * Both valves are slightly open. | * Both valves are slightly open. | ||
| * Both corresponding cams are on their respective side ramps. | * Both corresponding cams are on their respective side ramps. | ||
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| ====== Finding True TDC ====== | ====== Finding True TDC ====== | ||
| - | + | \\ | |
| - | + | ||
| ===== Accuracy of True TDC Using Only A Dial Indicator ===== | ===== Accuracy of True TDC Using Only A Dial Indicator ===== | ||
| There are several ways to find TDC. \\ | There are several ways to find TDC. \\ | ||
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| So, both ways are more user judgmental than anything scientific. | So, both ways are more user judgmental than anything scientific. | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:checking_engine_ccs_with_the_head_on_by_1_billeuze.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:dial_indicator_for_tdc_by_grind_.jpg?direct&400|}}| | + | |{{:techtalk:ref:engmech:checking_engine_ccs_with_the_head_on_by_1_billeuze.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:dial_indicator_for_tdc_by_grind_.jpg?direct&400|}}| |
| |For Ironhead and Shovelhead cylinders, \\ pull the head and install the indicator. ((photo by billeuze of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1507847))|Evo cylinders will have to be restrained with the \\ PVC couplings or other means. ((photo by by ~Grind~ of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1448694))| | |For Ironhead and Shovelhead cylinders, \\ pull the head and install the indicator. ((photo by billeuze of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1507847))|Evo cylinders will have to be restrained with the \\ PVC couplings or other means. ((photo by by ~Grind~ of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1448694))| | ||
| ===== Find True TDC Using a Dial Indicator and a Degree Wheel ===== | ===== Find True TDC Using a Dial Indicator and a Degree Wheel ===== | ||
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| * You can use the TDC mark etched into your flywheel on 2003 and prior stock engines to find TDC. | * You can use the TDC mark etched into your flywheel on 2003 and prior stock engines to find TDC. | ||
| * The marks should be accurate enough on these engines although [[techtalk:ref:svcproc22#finding_true_tdc|True TDC]] can be checked if need be. | * The marks should be accurate enough on these engines although [[techtalk:ref:svcproc22#finding_true_tdc|True TDC]] can be checked if need be. | ||
| - | * [[techtalk:ih:engctl01f|Click here for stock 57-85 TDC symbol identification]]. | + | * [[techtalk:ih:engctl01#timing_marks|Click here for stock 57-85 TDC symbol identification]]. |
| * [[techtalk:evo:engctl01#ignition_timing_-_all_models_thru_2003|Click here for stock 86-03 TDC symbol identification]]. | * [[techtalk:evo:engctl01#ignition_timing_-_all_models_thru_2003|Click here for stock 86-03 TDC symbol identification]]. | ||
| - | * If you've upgraded to a 2004 or later flywheel assembly, (on 03 and prior engines) you'll have to [[techtalk:ref:engmech01c|make your own TDC mark]] on these if you need one. \\ (this procedure can also be used to create the advance timing mark) | + | * If you've upgraded to a 2004 or later flywheel assembly, (on 03 and prior engines) you'll have to [[techtalk:ref:engmech01l|make your own TDC mark]] on these if you need one. \\ (this procedure can also be used to create the advance timing mark) |
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| | This can be removed with a 3/8" Allen hex wrench ((photos by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) || | | This can be removed with a 3/8" Allen hex wrench ((photos by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) || | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:finding_tdc_compression_1_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:finding_tdc_compression_2_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:finding_tdc_compression_1_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:finding_tdc_compression_2_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| * Once torque is removed (broken free) while backing out the timing plug, you should be able to turn it out by hand or by using just the Allen wrench socket gently by hand. \\ If you can't turn it out by hand, the threads could be warped or damaged from over torque the last time it was installed. \\ [[techtalk:ref:engmech01a|You can read more about it here]] including repair of damaged threads. | * Once torque is removed (broken free) while backing out the timing plug, you should be able to turn it out by hand or by using just the Allen wrench socket gently by hand. \\ If you can't turn it out by hand, the threads could be warped or damaged from over torque the last time it was installed. \\ [[techtalk:ref:engmech01a|You can read more about it here]] including repair of damaged threads. | ||
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| | When you take out the timing plug, \\ this is more than likely what you see ((photo by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) | TDC timing mark in center of window ((photo by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) | | | When you take out the timing plug, \\ this is more than likely what you see ((photo by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) | TDC timing mark in center of window ((photo by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) | | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:finding_tdc_compression_6_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:finding_tdc_compression_7_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:finding_tdc_compression_6_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:finding_tdc_compression_7_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| ===== Find TDC (compression) with the Rocker Box Off - Cams In ===== | ===== Find TDC (compression) with the Rocker Box Off - Cams In ===== | ||
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| | Using the "finger method" to feel compression build ((photo by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) | | | Using the "finger method" to feel compression build ((photo by Phillober of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1175659&highlight=tapping+threads&page=3)) | | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:finding_tdc_compression_8_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:finding_tdc_compression_8_by_phillober.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| Line 407: | Line 405: | ||
| * Or you can [[techtalk:ref:svcproc22#find_tdc_using_a_straw|use a straw inserted into the spark plug hole]] to measure when the piston has reached the top. | * Or you can [[techtalk:ref:svcproc22#find_tdc_using_a_straw|use a straw inserted into the spark plug hole]] to measure when the piston has reached the top. | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:tools:tdc_whistles_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{:techtalk:ref:tools:tdc_whistles_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:tools:tdc_whistle_2_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| - | | TDC whistles ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | + | | 14 mm and 12 mm TDC whistles ((photo by Hippysmack)) | 12 mm TDC whistle ((photo by Hippysmack)) | |
| ===== Confirming Which TDC You're On Using the Timing (rotor) Cup ===== | ===== Confirming Which TDC You're On Using the Timing (rotor) Cup ===== | ||
| It is possible to confirm whether the piston is on [[techtalk:ref:svcproc22#tdccompression_stroke_vs_exhaust_stroke_of_the_piston|compression or exhaust stroke]] by removing the nosecone cover and ignition and verifying which position the notch in the timing rotor is pointing. \\ | It is possible to confirm whether the piston is on [[techtalk:ref:svcproc22#tdccompression_stroke_vs_exhaust_stroke_of_the_piston|compression or exhaust stroke]] by removing the nosecone cover and ignition and verifying which position the notch in the timing rotor is pointing. \\ | ||
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| **Front Cylinder**: | **Front Cylinder**: | ||
| | **Cam positions at TDC on compression stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | **Cam positions at TDC on exhaust stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | | **Cam positions at TDC on compression stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | **Cam positions at TDC on exhaust stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:cam_positions_on_tdc_compression_stroke_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:cam_positions_on_tdc_exhaust_stroke_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:cam_positions_on_tdc_compression_stroke_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:cam_positions_on_tdc_exhaust_stroke_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| **Rear Cylinder**: | **Rear Cylinder**: | ||
| | **Cam positions at TDC on compression stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | **Cam positions at TDC on exhaust stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | | **Cam positions at TDC on compression stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | **Cam positions at TDC on exhaust stroke** ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | ||
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:degreeing_cams_21_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:degreeing_cams_22_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:degreeing_cams_21_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:degreeing_cams_22_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| * **With the gearcase cover on, ignition module removed**: The slot in the timing cup sits inside the slot in the #2 cam so the positioning is the same respectively. | * **With the gearcase cover on, ignition module removed**: The slot in the timing cup sits inside the slot in the #2 cam so the positioning is the same respectively. | ||
| **Front Cylinder**: | **Front Cylinder**: | ||
| - | | **Timing Cup** position at TDC on compression stroke. \\ Slot is up to the left. ((photo by Hippysmack)) | **Timing cup** position at TDC on exhaust stroke. \\ Slot is down to the right. ((photo by Hippysmack)) | | + | | **Timing Cup** position at TDC on compression stroke. \\ Cup mounting notch (near bolt) is up to the left. ((photo by Hippysmack)) | **Timing cup** position at TDC on exhaust stroke. \\ Cup mounting notch (near bolt) is down to the right. ((photo by Hippysmack)) | |
| - | |{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:timing_cup_position_on_tdc_compression_stroke_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:ref:trouble:timing_cup_position_on_tdc_exhaust_stroke_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| | + | |{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:timing_cup_position_on_tdc_compression_stroke_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{techtalk:ref:svcproc:timing_cup_position_on_tdc_exhaust_stroke_1_by_hippysmack.jpg?direct&300|}}| |
| ===== Tips for Getting the Transmission in High Gear ===== | ===== Tips for Getting the Transmission in High Gear ===== | ||
