Differences

This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.

--- techtalk:evo:susp02a [2017/09/16 15:22]
hippysmack [Aftermarket Shocks]
+++ techtalk:evo:susp02a [2024/01/06 05:54] (current)
hippysmack
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+[[:techtalk:menu|{{  :techtalk:gototechnicalmenu.jpg|}}]]
 ====== EVO: Suspension - Sub-02A ======
+====== 1200S Shocks on a 08 1200N ======
+Article by sportytrace of the XLFORUM ((https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/45904-1200s-shocks-on-1200n?t=164018))
-\\
+|The thread pattern on the standard shock bolts do not match the thread pattern on the TMW lowering blocks so you'll have to replace them. \\ Plus, the detachable rack does not make contact with the piggyback either.||
-====== Rear Shocks & Springs ======
+|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:1200s-1200n_shock_replacement_1_by_sportytrace.jpg?direct&400|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:1200s-1200n_shock_replacement_2_by_sportytrace.jpg?direct&400|}}|
+|  Shocks and lowering blocks installed ((photos by sportytrace of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/45904-1200s-shocks-on-1200n?t=164018))  ||
-<blockquote>
+|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:1200s-1200n_shock_replacement_3_by_sportytrace.jpg?direct&600|}} ((photos by sportytrace of the XLFORUM https://www.xlforum.net/forum/sportster-motorcycle-forum/sportster-motorcycle-suspension-frame-forks-handlebars-fuel-tank-oil-tank-fenders/45904-1200s-shocks-on-1200n?t=164018))|
-  * Generally, dive in a motorcycle is not a problem. Running out of suspension at either end of the shock travel is. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Shock travel should almost never be controlled by the shock. Travel should always be controlled by the spring. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Shock damping is just there to provide as little damping as required to keep the chassis movement from over shooting and bouncing. Shocks are not there to control total travel. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Shocks have two types of resistance in compression "low speed damping" and "high speed damping". High speed damping controls when the tire hits things like a speed bump. Low speed damping is things like a big dip in the highway. Extension damping only controls bounce or overshoot as the tires recover from a bump. Think of extension damping as the thing that only controls the spring. Compression damping controls the ride. Most of the time if you take the spring off the shock and pull in and out with your hands the resistance of the shock should be about the same going in and out. If you end up with way more of one that the other you must be trying to cover one problem with some other problem. Harley, on the Low bikes, is trying to cover up for too little extension travel with too much extension damping. Ride fast in fast bumps and the chassis will jack down or lower as you go thru the bumps. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * If, when trying to follow the above rules, you end up with too tight of springs for comfort then you do not have enough suspension travel. Add shock travel and start over. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * There is no such thing as upgrading springs. What you can change is spring rates and preload. The trick is knowing what direction to go. It is impossible for the shock guys to help you if there first question is not "what problem are we trying to solve". If you don't know what the problem is. You can't answer his first question. I was horrified the first time I rode my 2007 1200 Low and have since spent about $600 getting parts an pieces off e-bay to have parts to test with.  I have not found the front suspension that much of a problem. The rear was a mess from the factory. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * For a great schooling in suspension design, watch the moto-cross pros on TV and then reread the above rules several times during the program. Every lap will make this more clear. Google "Motion ratio" "shock tuning" "motorcycle shock tuning" for plenty more info. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Harleys try to break every one of these rules. Follow the rules and all is good. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
+**Ride Report**: \\ I sent an email to XLXR entitled "OMG!!!" which pretty much sums up the world of difference these shocks make from the stock shock. He replied "Can I say I told you so...." And yes, he did tell me so, and yes, he was dead right. As a reminder I'm 5'3" in my boots and 140lbs. I've been for a couple of rides since installing and have been adjusting a bit as I go. At the moment I'm 2 clicks from none on the preload to get the rider sag; 6 clicks from hard on rebound and 3 clicks from hard on compression. That was nicely suited to the twisty mountain run I did this morning. Yesterday I was three clicks softer on both for a freeway run and the bridge joins were hardly noticeable. No problems at speed. And the kickstand didn't scrape anything, not even the speed bump.
-</blockquote>
+  * How do they compare to the 300mm (almost 12") Hagons?
+    * Simply put they cope better with the bigger bumps and in particular, the hollows. The bike sags more under me, so the potholes / depressions in the road are much smoother, less topping out. The ride is not as firm to start with so I'm not feeling the small stuff at all. The Hagons themselves were better than standard; these are better again.
+  * So is there a down side?
-  * Generally, there are only 2 choices for shock springs, heavy and light. Although I have not looked in what Ohlins and Penske offers, Works is the only company that offers Dual Rate springs for shocks. But from my experience with Works Pro Racers, they are only guessing. Progressive does offer different spring rates for different lengths of shocks, but tuning the spring rate is limited to preload changes. Progressive has admitted to me that the shock valving is not changed, only the spring is changed from heavy to light. ((XLXR http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=4))
+    * I struggle to get her off the side stand. I wish my legs went to my armpits, but they don't  So being stubby (as Kev is known to remark) I can't get much in the way of leverage through my knees/legs, so it is a real heft to get her upright.
-  * Since our choice of springs is so limited, so is our ability to fine tune our suspension. The other big part of the problem is that most bikes with twin shocks are not considered hi performance, and therefor the aftermarket companies are not putting any effort into making good suspension for our specific bikes. ((XLXR http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=4))
+    * Does anyone know if the Euro nightsters came with the same stand? Or if there is another stand in the parts manual that will fit and work better at this height (not fully 13.25" and still lowered in the front)?
-  * So it seems to me that the greatest amount of adjustability to spring rates is offered by the Works Dual Rate springs. ((XLXR http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=4))
+    * The other downside is I'm now permanently on my toes; so I'm not as stable backing her up. I can get enough toe grip and leverage to back up on the flat, just not with the same stability I had before when I had a full foot hold. I won't be able to touch with both feet with an airhawk on the stock seat.
+    * And if you like the low/slammed look, well I don't really have that look anymore. But in this instance I'm taking function over form.
+    * The higher ground clearance increases the lean angle when the bike is on the kickstand.
-=== Here is a simple series of steps to get to your goal ===
-  * Take a bunch of mixed up Harley parts, matched the spring rate to your weight, unload the spring so it can work the way it is supposed to, match the damping curve to the spring rate, and then you end up with a better ride than HD put on the bike originally. ((XLXR http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=6))
-  * Pick a shock that has the most possible available stroke that when in the most compressed position will provide enough clearance for wires, fenders and other expensive things that the tire or belt may contact OR set this up so that you are 1 1/2" below the ride height that you are looking for. Measure this totally compressed length at the lower of these two points in the suspension travel. We will be aiming to only get the shock to this point at the biggest bump you ever intend to hit. Hopefully you can find a shock with around 3" of available stroke. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Next you need to find a spring that with the shock at full droop can be installed on the shock by hand. This guarantees that at full droop the spring has no more energy that needs to be controlled. With a sportster and with a rider in the 140 lb range the spring will end up at about 75 lb / per inch. At 250 lbs., I would expect the spring rate to end up in the 140 lb. / inch range. The spring rate needs to now support the bike and you so that there is still about 1 1/2" available shock travel to deal with bumps. Air shocks may be an option but I have never had a set to play with. They still need to meet these rules. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-=== How to Compress the Shock Springs for removal of Shocks ===
-  * I have a way to hang the shock in a press and then I have a tool I built that grabs the top cap and pushes the cap down so that I can grab the top C clip. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=5))
-== The definition of Motion Ratio ===
-  * Vertical wheel movement / Change in shock length ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=6))
-  - Jack up the bike
-  - Remove the shocks
-  - Let the tire drop to the ground and measure what the shock lenth would be if it was there. say 13.5"
-  - Raise the tire exactly some amount of distance say 4"
-  - Now measure the new shock length say 10"
-  *The motion ratio = 4" / (13.5" - 10") = 4" / 3.5" = 1.14 ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=6))
-==== Some Testing on the XL1200S Shocks (and mods) ====
-Article by spacetiger of the XLFORUM ((http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * Common wisdom regarding the S model shocks is that the springs are too soft for a rubber-mounts but, on bumpy city streets, who knows? They may not be far off what you need. With the short forks, raising the rear is going to throw a bit more weight on the front, therefore less on the rear. It's a balancing act. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * Good points:
-    * They are longer (taller) ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-    * Versatile adjustability (compression and rebound) ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * Bad points:
-    * Soft springs (although that may be a good point to some)
-    * Shocks are not rebuild-able so they have to be replaced when bad
-    * Obsolete part now so you have to either buy used (possibly weaker) ones or buy aftermarkets if wish to just swap them out.
-      * However, 2" ID [Eibach] springs are easy to get. The other items are too, just takes a little effort to source them. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * I have disassembled one and tested the spring - 52.94 lbs/in. It is the weakest spring I have ever tested from any bike. My 86 Honda VF700C had rear 97 lb/in springs and they were inadequate. The springs are weak, but that's why you replace the springs to what you need. The S model shock is a good shock once you get the right [Eibach] spring on. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-Some early XL1200S test results:
-|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:2003_20xl1200s_20rear_20shock_disassembled_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:2003_20xl1200s_20rear_20shock_testing_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:2003_20xl1200s_20rear_20shock_test_20results_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|XL1200S rear shock disassembled ((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2)) →|Spring testing using home gym equipment ((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2)) →|Test results ((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2)) ✔|
-  * Here are a few more items that back up how weak the springs are.
-  * You can see the suspension strategy for the stock shock using the weak spring. The free length of the spring is a tad over 10" (10.125"). Once mounted in the shock, its mounted length is only 8". That means the spring is compressed a little over 2". With a 53 lb/in spring rate, that gives you a 112.5 lb preload - and you have 2 shocks. You can dial in some additional preload, but that's it. For a lighter weight rider, that might be enough to set the initial sag but that's it. The spring doesn't have enough top end capacity to prevent you from bottoming out. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * I also show what the spring capacity is with no additional preload dialed in. This is the blue line with the "1" on it. You can see it starts at 112.5 lb preload (from the spring mounting). As you add more weight to the spring, it begins to compress until it get to the working range of the shock (2.63" later). The total capacity is 252 lbs. If you dial in all the shock preload, the # "1" line moves over and becomes the # "4" dark blue line. Compressing the spring with all the shock preload yields a max capacity of 282 lbs. That 30 lb extra capacity is only about 12% more capacity. So, if you have these shocks and weigh anything close to an average man, you need all the preload dialed in... but I bet you still bottom out a lot. So the strategy is clear if using this shock, you will have to swap out the spring. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * In the 3rd picture below, I ditched the fancy chrome top and bottom trim pieces.
-|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:2003_20xl1200s_20rear_20shock_springs_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:2003_20xl1200s_20rear_20shock_test_20implications_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2003_8_zpszfeiwvqt_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2)) → |((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2)) ✔|((http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=3)) →|
-  * I wanted a different setup to handle the preload setup for the shocks with a coil over sleeve as I find these excellent to dial your suspension preload and top end right in. The problem is no one makes a coil over sleeve in that small of a diameter (~1.75”) because there is no market for these small sleeves. I found the rear shock for a 2007 Victory Jackpot with a coil over sleeve that looked to be close to the size I needed.
-|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2044_zps81rrx9i2_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2045_zpsdviuj1wo_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2065_zps725ybv73_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|The shock after I disassembled it. The threaded \\ portion would not come free, so I setup the band \\ saw to cut just above the threaded portion. I thought \\ I’d have to cut the shock in half, but I only had to cut \\ just below the sleeve and it came free. I had to sand \\ the inner sleeve a bit to get it to fit the XL1200S \\ retainer clip. ((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=7)) →|All mounted up and went together nicely. \\ So here it is; 2003 Harley Davidson XL1200S shock \\ body, 1986 Honda VF700C spring, and 2007 Victory \\ Jackpot coil over sleeve.  ((photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=7)) →|Both shocks modified. I was able to assemble the \\ other shock and set the estimated preload for correct \\ sag. Seems I cannot quite get to a sag at 25% and \\ will have to settle for a 31% sag. A bit on the high \\ side, but I will still have almost doubled the working \\ range of the shock. If this doesn't hold up in real \\ world riding, I will have to get some new Eibach \\ springs. ✔|
-  * Harley specs out there own dimensions, which probably do not cross over with anything else that particular brand made. Sometimes shocks are press fit together, and are not rebuild-able.
-  * Even if you could swap out to a heavier spring, which would be closer to 75/120 lbs/in, I doubt the dampening curves will match that big a jump. Ricor inertia technology makes cartridge/shim stack technology obsolete. ((XLXR of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=2))
-  * As you increase spring rate, you need to reduce compression dampening and increase rebound dampening. Then the question becomes if the external adjusters on the 1200S shocks will have enough range of adjustment to match the heavier spring. If they don't, then you have to take the shocks apart and change the internal shims,  ((XLXR of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=10)) or change the oil weight or modify the valving (if there is no shim stack), or a some of both. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=10))
-==== Characterizing the 1200S Shock Damping  ====
-  * If you move the compression dial from one end to the other, you would count 16 clicks and see it goes almost 4 times around, so each click is worth 90 degrees of rotation - but what does that mean?
-  * I found I can use one of my shock compression tools to test the shock (minus the spring) to see what the characteristic of the [compression and rebound] damping adjustments are on a shock. I use a stopwatch to see how long it takes to compress the shock for a given dial setting. The relative time comparison between compression and rebound times allow you to pick a strategy to get to a 2.5 to 1 or maybe as high as 3 to 1 (this is more of a cruiser than a knee dragging ride).
-|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2035_zps3fwhvyuy_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2036_zpsoundoc5i_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2037_zpskkcnpkvm_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|The test rig ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|Put the shock into the lowest compression damping \\ setting ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|Write down the time for all 10 drops; take out the \\ highest and lowest number; then average the times. \\ The average is the time for that dial setting. Rotate \\ the dial 360 degrees, then repeat time collection. Do \\ this until you are at the end. For the compression dial, \\ the last try only move 279 degrees, not a full 360 \\ degrees ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|
-|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2038_zps2jyp8oex_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2039_zpsom8rdtpd_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2040_zpsrjntou8z_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|Plotting the average times per 360 degree rotation \\ yields this graph. You can see, not much happens \\ the first 720 degrees. ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|Time to flip the shock and test the rebound damping. \\ Dial back to the lowest rebound setting and paint a \\ reference mark ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|Collect the data the same way as the compression \\ testing. The rebound dial only goes around three \\ 360 degree turns. ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|
-|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2041_zpsch45jzte_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|{{:techtalk:evo:susp:testing_2042_zpsflxdyohh_by_spacetiger.jpg?direct&300|}}|
-|The Rebound damping timing curve ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) →|Put the two curves together and you can see the \\ damping strategy shooting for the highest ratio \\ desired (3.0). You dial in ALL the rebound damping, \\ then dial in zero compression damping. That sets you \\ up with a 2.7 ratio. You can walk in compression \\ damping as needed. I would work in 0.2 ratio \\ increments (can our butts feel 0.1 increment \\ changes??) ((Photo by spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5)) ✔|
-  * High speed compression dampening can't be done on the bench. You have to do that with your butt on the road. I have found if you avoid the pot holes, it may not be critical for how you ride. ((spacetiger of the XLFORUM http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=1863121&page=5))
@@ Line 122: / Line 26: @@
 \\
-===== 2006-2007 1200L =====
-  * 2007 Harley 1200 Low Springs 100 pounds per inch progressive wound (but built by Harley to go progressive too late to help much. It goes to hard rate at a spring height of 6" or a shock length of about 10.5") ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * 2006 Harley 1200 R shocks a little too much low extension damping but appears to be acceptable ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-    * Preload adjuster set to full hard to give about 20lb. of spring preload at 13.25 c to c on the shock (the only setting that is acceptable due to spring length). ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-    * Ride height ends up 1.33" from full compression, (with a 200 lb. rider) and 1.9" from full extension (bike on a jack) 12.5" shock c to c with the bike on the Low stand. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Shock length fully extended: 13.25" (you are in this range any time you crest a hill at high speed the trick is to keep the tire on the road at all cost) ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Shock length with bike straight up no rider weight: 12.1" (you are in this range every time the road goes down, it happens just as often as the road goes up) ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * Shock length with a 200 lb. rider: 11.4" (you are in this range right after a raised or rising bump) ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-  * This is all spring rate trying to save hardware.
-    * Shock length fully compressed 10" ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-    * Shock length with the bike on the kickstand 12.5" (this is a bling thing and it's not significant for handling. ((whittlebeast http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=47542&highlight=1200s+shocks&page=3))
-===== Screaming Eagle Piggyback Shocks =====
-  * 340 mm / 13.39 inches center to center with 92mm / 3.62 inches of travel.
-    * [[https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/screamin-eagle-fully-adjustable-piggyback-shocks]]

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